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Old March 5th, 2018, 10:11 AM   #21
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The Age of Lead? (Pb)

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I think we can all guess where the Vatican should start.

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Does McDonald's even serve split pea soup?

But of course, the real sticking point would be the Trump White House's reaction to even the idea: Fake Good News! So Sade!
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Old March 5th, 2018, 10:15 AM   #22
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The Large Hadron Collider?

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We have lost touch w/ our ability to "communicate w/ nature" for lack of a better term. Many believe that this is by design and can be traced back to the romans co-opting Catholicism. Think of all the knowledge hidden away in the Vatican vaults. But hey, at least we are punching holes in the fabric of our known reality w/ places like sern.

...
Hmm. Maybe CERN?
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Old March 5th, 2018, 10:25 AM   #23
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Love me, love my dogma

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Something is very wrong with the Catholic mind set and world view. They have graven images in their church for starters.
TMK, the statues are not intended as gods nor idols. If it's a statue of a saint (an extraordinarily holy person), then it's meant as a reminder of what's possible, with God's grace.

& of course Martin Luther started out as Roman Catholic, for 16 years.
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Old March 5th, 2018, 10:32 AM   #24
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TMK, the statues are not intended as gods nor idols. If it's a statue of a saint (an extraordinarily holy person), then it's meant as a reminder of what's possible, with God's grace.

& of course Martin Luther started out as Roman Catholic, for 16 years.
I might question that. At what point does it become worship? The lighting of candles and prayers said, in particular to Mary as well as other saints does strike me as worship.
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Old March 5th, 2018, 10:58 AM   #25
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More of a common carrier, I think

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I might question that. At what point does it become worship? The lighting of candles and prayers said, in particular to Mary as well as other saints does strike me as worship.
Once the Catholic Church came out of the catacombs in Rome, services (& art & architecture) were meant to emphasize the Good News, & point the parishioners' attention to God & Heaven, & beyond the purely physical.

Yes, the Marian cult - perhaps taking over some of the old Roman & Greek gods' attributes - is an issue. I recall it's one of the splits between the Eastern & Western churches. But TMK, the prayers to Mary are intercessionary, asking her to carry wishes to Christ, in her role as the Mother of Christ. (Which itself is another long & tangled theological/philosophical conversation between East & West.)
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Old March 5th, 2018, 06:27 PM   #26
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Once the Catholic Church came out of the catacombs in Rome, services (& art & architecture) were meant to emphasize the Good News, & point the parishioners' attention to God & Heaven, & beyond the purely physical.

Yes, the Marian cult - perhaps taking over some of the old Roman & Greek gods' attributes - is an issue. I recall it's one of the splits between the Eastern & Western churches. ` (Which itself is another long & tangled theological/philosophical conversation between East & West.)
That's absolutely against the grain of the Gospel.

The Gospel is simplicity itself. Love God. Don't let anything come between you and your love for God, and that includes friends and family.

Love your neighbor as you love yourself. This is less of a commandment as it is a statement of fact. You cannot truly love your neighbor more than you love yourself. You cannot truly love yourself more than you love your neighbor. The principle: You will love your neighbor as you love yourself.

Finally, no need exists for anyone to intercede on behalf of anyone. The line to God is direct. A disciple of Yeshua is free from attachment to ecclesiastical hierarchy. More, the Gospel makes clear Christians have no need for ecclesiastical hierarchy.

And ornate churches and cathedrals bedecked with precious stones and metals also run against the grain of the Gospel. For an irrefutable fact, Yeshua the Christ would say to sell all the adornments to ego and religious establishments and give the proceeds to the poor.

For a fact.
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Old March 5th, 2018, 08:06 PM   #27
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That's absolutely against the grain of the Gospel.

The Gospel is simplicity itself. Love God. Don't let anything come between you and your love for God, and that includes friends and family.

Love your neighbor as you love yourself. This is less of a commandment as it is a statement of fact. You cannot truly love your neighbor more than you love yourself. You cannot truly love yourself more than you love your neighbor. The principle: You will love your neighbor as you love yourself.

Finally, no need exists for anyone to intercede on behalf of anyone. The line to God is direct. A disciple of Yeshua is free from attachment to ecclesiastical hierarchy. More, the Gospel makes clear Christians have no need for ecclesiastical hierarchy.

And ornate churches and cathedrals bedecked with precious stones and metals also run against the grain of the Gospel. For an irrefutable fact, Yeshua the Christ would say to sell all the adornments to ego and religious establishments and give the proceeds to the poor.

For a fact.
Yah, I read here & there in the history of Christianity. The issue for the Roman Catholic hierarchy is that the Apostles & the nascent church expected Christ's return within their lifetime. As the centuries passed, it became clear that the church would be in possibly a long wait, & the question turned into How do you keep ready for the return?

As Roman Emperor Constantine helped prop up the empire with the acceptance (& then taxes, devotions, a place in government) for the church, the church had to organize more & more hierarchically in order to wield the governing responsibilities that the Roman state offered - as well as to take up the challenge of putting up physical church buildings - & hospitals & poorhouses & orphanages & schools & on & on.

Somewhere in there the Roman emperors & the bishops & cardinals & popes & theologians hammered out doctrine - or discovered it in the Bible, or acquiesced when the emperors required a stable body of doctrine to end the theological squabbling over the nature of Christ, the meaning of salvation, heaven, the mandate of heaven for secular government, & on & on.

There is a communal aspect to Roman Catholicism. The church, while undergoing persecution by the state - mostly the Roman Empire - had to endure as a community. I'm not sure what those communities would have made of the notion of every man for himself - something would have gone out of the heart & soul of those communities, I think. Certainly the martyrs of the faith did not accept the notion of survival @ any cost as a viable option.
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Old March 5th, 2018, 08:43 PM   #28
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Does McDonald's even serve split pea soup?

But of course, the real sticking point would be the Trump White House's reaction to even the idea: Fake Good News! So Sade!
Galina is lead ore and heavy deposits are found on Flint River, Michigan. That State up North.
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Old March 5th, 2018, 08:58 PM   #29
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Yah, I read here & there in the history of Christianity. The issue for the Roman Catholic hierarchy is that the Apostles & the nascent church expected Christ's return within their lifetime. As the centuries passed, it became clear that the church would be in possibly a long wait, & the question turned into How do you keep ready for the return?

As Roman Emperor Constantine helped prop up the empire with the acceptance (& then taxes, devotions, a place in government) for the church, the church had to organize more & more hierarchically in order to wield the governing responsibilities that the Roman state offered - as well as to take up the challenge of putting up physical church buildings - & hospitals & poorhouses & orphanages & schools & on & on.

Somewhere in there the Roman emperors & the bishops & cardinals & popes & theologians hammered out doctrine - or discovered it in the Bible, or acquiesced when the emperors required a stable body of doctrine to end the theological squabbling over the nature of Christ, the meaning of salvation, heaven, the mandate of heaven for secular government, & on & on.

There is a communal aspect to Roman Catholicism. The church, while undergoing persecution by the state - mostly the Roman Empire - had to endure as a community. I'm not sure what those communities would have made of the notion of every man for himself - something would have gone out of the heart & soul of those communities, I think. Certainly the martyrs of the faith did not accept the notion of survival @ any cost as a viable option.
What do you mean by "every man for himself?"
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Old March 6th, 2018, 07:21 AM   #30
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What do you mean by "every man for himself?"
In terms of human destiny? I think de Tocqueville (& Athena, here on DtT) have the right of it - people need associations, to be with other people. In the Brit colonies in N. America & eventually the US, the need is particularly acute. We cast off state religion, we were fairly serious about renouncing political parties, the usual Brit class system, we even entertained the notion of adopting Greek as the national language (to cut the ties with UK). Cooler heads prevailed, of course.

Christianity desacralized the World, & so we were free to rearrange it & plow & fell & hunt & domesticate - something new in the World. The Protestant ethic deemphasizes community, & sola Scriptura puts the responsibility for saving oneself squarely on the individual (@ the expense of leaving behind communitarian traditions, the ideas of art & architecture praising/embodying the World & the God behind it all).

Communitarian traditions are a kind of psychic shelter against a too literal existentialism. If God is silent, is He waiting for us to speak? Is He there @ all? As our society in the US speeds up - from beepers to car phones to sat phones to smart phones - I think the old common ties (church, school, town, neighborhood, family, friends, political parties, Elks & Moose & Boy Scouts & Masons, etc.) are dissolving - or @ least, being reformed & reformatted into something similar to, but possibly not as satisfying in terms of being with people physically. & acting towards a common goal, & all the activities that go with that - which again, used to entail talking to & with people, & acting in concert, planning, taking varying roles in the process - learning how to participate, & carrying some larger purpose through.

Protestantism perhaps frees people of hierarchical ties (certainly in religion). But it may liberate people too much - without other social systems to buffer the young personality (our young people in the West are prone to self-destructive behaviors, & I think the rate of incidence is accelerating), our young are left too often to fend for themselves. & the most weakly acculturated/socialized among them - whether by lack of caring family or substitutes, or genetic/hereditary reasons - are going under. The challenges to the personality in formation may be too much for some lost souls.

Sorry, you didn't ask for a sermon. But you did ask.
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