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Old February 12th, 2018, 07:35 AM   #361
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Originally Posted by Athena View Post
I totally agree with you. But that does not mean women never use the rape card for the wrong reason. That is why proof is important for both the man and the woman. On the other hand, sexual assault covers a lot and there is not always evidence.

I am blown away by how much this is in the news lately! In the news now is women have been sexually assaulted on airplanes and there is not a procedure for handling this problem.

Clara, I am just really dumb about this stuff. It makes no sense to me at all.
I don't know if things have always been this bad, or if the problem has gotten worse because we have approved of "sexual freedom"? What do others think? My memory is of very clear rules. You don't do it unless you are married, and then it is only with that one person. That seems to define what is okay and what is not, but we have destroyed that understanding of the rules. Maybe people never lived by the rules?



Athena, I NEVER said "NEVER" in reference to women crying "rape". I said IT IS RARE. There are MANY MANY more women who don't say anything. I was one of those victims. Eventually, I told my mother and she said "NO WAY"--HE is such a nice boy from such a nice family." End of discussion. I never brought it up again.

So the nice boy from the nice family WAS never accused. Never investigated. Never arrested. Never did a single day in jail.

As you can tell, I FEEL very strongly about this subject. I taught young women in public school who had suffered abuse. I could tell you stories that would curl your hair. Stepfathers--brothers--step brothers--crazy uncles....you name it. The men IN THE FAMILY did it.

Please do your research and stop believing the poor guys who act so innocent. Many are NOT.
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Old February 12th, 2018, 08:27 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by Clara007 View Post
Athena, I NEVER said "NEVER" in reference to women crying "rape". I said IT IS RARE. There are MANY MANY more women who don't say anything. I was one of those victims. Eventually, I told my mother and she said "NO WAY"--HE is such a nice boy from such a nice family." End of discussion. I never brought it up again.

So the nice boy from the nice family WAS never accused. Never investigated. Never arrested. Never did a single day in jail.

As you can tell, I FEEL very strongly about this subject. I taught young women in public school who had suffered abuse. I could tell you stories that would curl your hair. Stepfathers--brothers--step brothers--crazy uncles....you name it. The men IN THE FAMILY did it.

Please do your research and stop believing the poor guys who act so innocent. Many are NOT.
Some cultures handle this problem by not allowing females to leave home without an escort. I was told my Grandmother's parents escorted her to her prom. I read in an old book that parents should entertain their children and their children's friends at home, so their children did not face the risks of being alone with the wrong person or the temptations at dancing halls. Of course, this comes with the notion that women stay home to care for the children.

When women stay home they are not tempting men and they are not at risk. This is much better for marriages because then men are not tempted in the workplace. Those old rules assumed males had little control over their impulses and perhaps it is more realistic to assume females must be protected because males have so little control? How realistic is it to have freedom without risks?
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Old February 13th, 2018, 03:24 AM   #363
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In a marriage between a man and a woman, there is no such thing as a fedeness, a woman also lies with a man.
title of this portuguese song (nobody is nobody in portuguese ninguém é de ninguém. )

https://youtu.be/2i7rOSeZ9qA

João Pedro Pais - Ninguém é de ninguém - LETRA (música romântica portuguesa)
_________
Ninguém é de Ninguém
João Pedro Pais
_____________________________________________
_________________________________________________
Conta-me histórias de tempos
A que eu gostaria de voltar
Tenho saudades de momentos
Que nunca mais vou encontrar
A vida talvez sejam só 3 dias
Eu quero andar sempre devagar
Até a ti chegar

Ninguém é de ninguém
Mesmo quando se ama alguém
Ninguém é de ninguém
Quando a vida nos contém
Ninguém é de ninguém
Quando dormes a meu lado
Ninguém é de ninguém
Quando fico acordado vendo-te dormir

Um raio de sol através de um vidro
Faz-me por vezes hesitar
Na vontade de estar contigo
Melodia paira no ar
Paira no ar

Ninguém é de ninguém
Mesmo quando se ama alguém
Ninguém é de ninguém
Quando a vida nos contém
Ninguém é de ninguém
Quando dormes a meu lado
Ninguém é de ninguém
Quando fico acordado vendo-te dormir
vendo-te dormir




I offer these flowers to the ladies who walk in this forum.


Mentira mentir mentem mentiroso mentirosos mentirosa.Aldrabar aldrabão aldrabona impostor impostora. all these Portuguese words have the same meaning LIE )

https://youtu.be/OlmQfC9G5cI

João Pedro Pais - Mentira - LIE

Mentira
João Pedro Pais


Dá-me vontade de te ter a meu lado
Vendo-te a olhar para mim
Sei que estou apaixonado
Mas não posso ficar assim
Sentado num rochedo canto para ti
Como um pássaro livre que voa sem fim
Porque é que a vida nos trama
Quando alguém se ama?
Ter de partir
E não poder sorrir
Porque é que choras?
Porque é que dizes o meu nome
Sem nunca me poderes tocar?

Tenho saudades de te ver
Vontade de te abraçar
Sozinho tocando uma guitarra
Junto ao mar
Recordo-me de ti
E imagino porquê
A tua cara a flutuar
Porque é que a vida nos fascina?
Tantas vezes nos domina?
Acreditar que no amor
Não se sente a dor
Mas é mentira!
Mentira! Mentira! Mentira!

Last edited by avlis; February 13th, 2018 at 04:39 AM.
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Old February 13th, 2018, 08:20 AM   #364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Athena View Post
Clara, I really like you and hate to offend you, but I question your lack of leniency? Have you never done something, then realized it was the wrong thing to do? I know I regret a few things I did and that is why I believe we make mistakes and need to learn. At least one Pope acknowledged in his youth he was a bit wild. For sure Jesus said God is forgiving, but you are not going to accept any excuses? Isn't that being more demanding than God?

Did you ever think "there but for the grace of God go I" and think how lucky you are if your life was so protected you never fell short of the pious ideal?
I appreciate your approach to these kiinds of issues, since Ithink it's good to hold our own to higher account than we do others...just as we should be more critical and scrutinize our own conduct, than we are of what other people around us say and do.

That's why...when it comes to gender issues, I am much more critical of my side than I am of women. I know what it's like to be a man, and I haven't forgotten the bullshit games that men talk about privately and mythologize and brag about, whether there's an ounce of truth behind them or not....specifically, we used to call it 'practicing the 4 F's. And when I was young, I thought there was something wrong with me cause I just wanted a girlfriend- ONE girlfriend....not trying to string a bunch along at the same time to be seen with someone else at a club or brag about later!

Today, my sneaking suspicions are that the majority of agrieved "MGTOW"'s...roughly means men who claim they've given up on women completely, is that these are old players, and when they get to my age, they have sad, very sad stories to tell, cause their marriages are busted, their kids want little or nothing to do with them, and the years of drinking, partying, overeating....basically living the 'good' life have left them physically decrepit hollowed out shells of their former selves! While those of us who were considered uncool cause we settle for living quiet lives of moderation end up often getting the last laugh when we go to a highschool reunion and look around.

But, in the end, my scrutiny is also largely influenced by what relative power different groups have within our society. There are few women who are big and strong enough to be bulletproof when it comes to resisting the advances of a man she doesn't want! Whether it's having the economic power to say no, or the physical power to be able to hurt a guy who doesn't take no for an answer, the male half of our species still has greater power and capacity to become a predator, while unfortunately only a few women are completely able to resist predation under all circumstances.
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Old February 13th, 2018, 08:32 AM   #365
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Athena View Post
Some cultures handle this problem by not allowing females to leave home without an escort. I was told my Grandmother's parents escorted her to her prom. I read in an old book that parents should entertain their children and their children's friends at home, so their children did not face the risks of being alone with the wrong person or the temptations at dancing halls. Of course, this comes with the notion that women stay home to care for the children.

When women stay home they are not tempting men and they are not at risk. This is much better for marriages because then men are not tempted in the workplace. Those old rules assumed males had little control over their impulses and perhaps it is more realistic to assume females must be protected because males have so little control? How realistic is it to have freedom without risks?
Let me give you another personal example that comes out of left field:
before I turned 23 and left home to live and work in the US to take advantage of my US citizenship, one of the biggest differences I found was that in Ontario, strip clubs allowed full nudity for onstage performers/while in New York State and other states, full nudity for forbidden. That explained why there were so many strip clubs on the Canadian side of the border! BUT, until a very unfortunate, ill-advised court decision in the late 80's, the strip clubs on the Canadian side had strict, no touch policies between the strippers and patrons.

And since every club I knew about was owned and operated by one of three area motorcycle gangs, who were very serious about not allowing anything to happen inside that would endanger their licences and lead to closure..... any guy who couldn't keep his hands off one of the girls, for whatever reasons, would be taken out back by a couple of bouncers, and when they were done with him, he would be left out in the alley, usually unconscious! That was pretty much all the disincentives any guy in the club needed to 'control himself.' So, I figured that at 18...after living a mostly sheltered, overly fundamentalist life, if I could control myself in a room with naked women, anyone could, if they actually tried to!
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Old February 13th, 2018, 09:56 AM   #366
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Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,155
Quote:
Originally Posted by avlis View Post
In a marriage between a man and a woman, there is no such thing as a fedeness, a woman also lies with a man.
title of this portuguese song (nobody is nobody in portuguese ninguém é de ninguém. )

https://youtu.be/2i7rOSeZ9qA

João Pedro Pais - Ninguém é de ninguém - LETRA (música romântica portuguesa)
_________
Ninguém é de Ninguém
João Pedro Pais
_____________________________________________
_________________________________________________
Conta-me histórias de tempos
A que eu gostaria de voltar
Tenho saudades de momentos
Que nunca mais vou encontrar
A vida talvez sejam só 3 dias
Eu quero andar sempre devagar
Até a ti chegar

Ninguém é de ninguém
Mesmo quando se ama alguém
Ninguém é de ninguém
Quando a vida nos contém
Ninguém é de ninguém
Quando dormes a meu lado
Ninguém é de ninguém
Quando fico acordado vendo-te dormir

Um raio de sol através de um vidro
Faz-me por vezes hesitar
Na vontade de estar contigo
Melodia paira no ar
Paira no ar

Ninguém é de ninguém
Mesmo quando se ama alguém
Ninguém é de ninguém
Quando a vida nos contém
Ninguém é de ninguém
Quando dormes a meu lado
Ninguém é de ninguém
Quando fico acordado vendo-te dormir
vendo-te dormir




I offer these flowers to the ladies who walk in this forum.


Mentira mentir mentem mentiroso mentirosos mentirosa.Aldrabar aldrabão aldrabona impostor impostora. all these Portuguese words have the same meaning LIE )

https://youtu.be/OlmQfC9G5cI

João Pedro Pais - Mentira - LIE

Mentira
João Pedro Pais


Dá-me vontade de te ter a meu lado
Vendo-te a olhar para mim
Sei que estou apaixonado
Mas não posso ficar assim
Sentado num rochedo canto para ti
Como um pássaro livre que voa sem fim
Porque é que a vida nos trama
Quando alguém se ama?
Ter de partir
E não poder sorrir
Porque é que choras?
Porque é que dizes o meu nome
Sem nunca me poderes tocar?

Tenho saudades de te ver
Vontade de te abraçar
Sozinho tocando uma guitarra
Junto ao mar
Recordo-me de ti
E imagino porquê
A tua cara a flutuar
Porque é que a vida nos fascina?
Tantas vezes nos domina?
Acreditar que no amor
Não se sente a dor
Mas é mentira!
Mentira! Mentira! Mentira!
Thank you for the flowers.

But what does a woman lie about?
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Old February 13th, 2018, 10:35 AM   #367
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Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,155
Quote:
Originally Posted by right to left View Post
I appreciate your approach to these kiinds of issues, since Ithink it's good to hold our own to higher account than we do others...just as we should be more critical and scrutinize our own conduct, than we are of what other people around us say and do.

That's why...when it comes to gender issues, I am much more critical of my side than I am of women. I know what it's like to be a man, and I haven't forgotten the bullshit games that men talk about privately and mythologize and brag about, whether there's an ounce of truth behind them or not....specifically, we used to call it 'practicing the 4 F's. And when I was young, I thought there was something wrong with me cause I just wanted a girlfriend- ONE girlfriend....not trying to string a bunch along at the same time to be seen with someone else at a club or brag about later!

Today, my sneaking suspicions are that the majority of agrieved "MGTOW"'s...roughly means men who claim they've given up on women completely, is that these are old players, and when they get to my age, they have sad, very sad stories to tell, cause their marriages are busted, their kids want little or nothing to do with them, and the years of drinking, partying, overeating....basically living the 'good' life have left them physically decrepit hollowed out shells of their former selves! While those of us who were considered uncool cause we settle for living quiet lives of moderation end up often getting the last laugh when we go to a highschool reunion and look around.

But, in the end, my scrutiny is also largely influenced by what relative power different groups have within our society. There are few women who are big and strong enough to be bulletproof when it comes to resisting the advances of a man she doesn't want! Whether it's having the economic power to say no, or the physical power to be able to hurt a guy who doesn't take no for an answer, the male half of our species still has greater power and capacity to become a predator, while unfortunately only a few women are completely able to resist predation under all circumstances.

I see men alone with their children at the park or walking with a stroller along the bike path, and I marvel at the change. I make a sexist statement and embarrass myself because younger men are not playing by the old rules and may be the one who comes home and makes dinner. Now instead of throwing rocks at each other, what can we know of why people behave one way and not another?

I think you are going to like this one- men and women had divided labor, but it made sense and was practical- more importantly, they were working together. Industrialization took the man out of the home. Not only did it take the man out of the home, and make his life totally separate from his family, but it is autocrat, patriarchy at its worst. I feel so sorry for those men who were worked like slaves if not worse then slaves, because a slave owner has an investment in a slave. An industrialist has no investment in a laborer. "Liberating women" to be part of this and women liking it, is a bit insane to me! And that liberation may not be good for family values?

As for women choosing 4 F men. That is hormonal. Honest to God, when they ovalate they are attracted to the bad boys. What is really awful is this is subconscious and they not aware they are attracted because of their hormones. But for the rest of the month, they are attracted to the man who stays home and is a good husband and father.

I love science and the more we know about the science of our behaviors, the better off we can be.

The bible is useful, but how many men study their bible and attend church meetings regularly? Staying in a marriage has a lot to do with our social connections. The guys who hang out in the bar, are not apt to be desirable husbands because a bar has nothing to do with family, except maybe share with others how lousy the wife at home is. This thread about women being liars, started out to be a good thread for those men.

By the way, want happened to the men who want to bitch about women? I am not seeing many arguments on the side of attacking women?
Thanks from right to left
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Old February 13th, 2018, 11:03 AM   #368
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Posts: 1,155
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Originally Posted by right to left View Post
Let me give you another personal example that comes out of left field:
before I turned 23 and left home to live and work in the US to take advantage of my US citizenship, one of the biggest differences I found was that in Ontario, strip clubs allowed full nudity for onstage performers/while in New York State and other states, full nudity for forbidden. That explained why there were so many strip clubs on the Canadian side of the border! BUT, until a very unfortunate, ill-advised court decision in the late 80's, the strip clubs on the Canadian side had strict, no touch policies between the strippers and patrons.

And since every club I knew about was owned and operated by one of three area motorcycle gangs, who were very serious about not allowing anything to happen inside that would endanger their licences and lead to closure..... any guy who couldn't keep his hands off one of the girls, for whatever reasons, would be taken out back by a couple of bouncers, and when they were done with him, he would be left out in the alley, usually unconscious! That was pretty much all the disincentives any guy in the club needed to 'control himself.' So, I figured that at 18...after living a mostly sheltered, overly fundamentalist life, if I could control myself in a room with naked women, anyone could, if they actually tried to!
That is another subject. Or maybe two or three subjects. There is the science, and there is what coming from a fundamentalist home has to do with sexual choices, and there is what a woman does with her body and how this effects her social status. Dancing nude and allowing men to touch tends to go with a complete loss of dignity and social status. I don't think the same is so for male dancers?

I am curious about what the double standard has to do everything. Is being molested such a terrible thing, or does the double standard make it terrible? Especially in Muslim countries, the double standard is harsh and a woman has her life on the line if she is ever alone with a man in a room and even if nothing happens! I played Dungeons and Dragons with a bad game master who allowed my character to be raped and declared as a Queen, I also lost all my property because of being raped. I was furious, and I made everyone pay big time for being okay with that. It took a few days before my friends agreed I had to be appeased, but I was appeased! Thank heavens it was only fantasy, but just the same, that kind of thinking comes up in real life and makes something like nudity or being molested, a huge deal, when physically it might not be a big deal at all. Heck, for the Muslim woman it could have been completely innocent with no harm done, and a fanatical father being the one to kill her. In the US the worst that I have heard done is forcing a woman to wear the letter A for adultery, while there is no plenty for men. From shame, to losing everything, including one's life, we seem to have hundreds, if not thousands of years, of built up rage that is not good for mankind.
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Old February 16th, 2018, 01:42 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by Athena View Post
I see men alone with their children at the park or walking with a stroller along the bike path, and I marvel at the change.
Me too! I'm the youngest and also the first man in my family who did feedings and changed diapers when my two were little. So, some things have changed for the better....I miss the days when I was taking my kids to the park and on hikes....I guess that's why we end up buying dogs! They enjoy everything in life just like young children!

Quote:
I make a sexist statement and embarrass myself because younger men are not playing by the old rules and may be the one who comes home and makes dinner. Now instead of throwing rocks at each other, what can we know of why people behave one way and not another?
In the book I referenced earlier: Red Hangover by Kristen Ghodsee, she mentions that despite a wide range of successes in improving quality of life in communist East Germany and Bulgaria, one of the failures was that married women were still mostly responsible for picking up the kids at the daycare after work and making supper and cleaning for the family after everyone got home, while the men mostly went out to bars and coffee shops to socialize. Either the communist party authorities thought this was how things were supposed to be...in spite of the official rhetoric of womens liberation, or the mostly men running the parties didn't consider it a big enough social issue.

Quote:
I think you are going to like this one- men and women had divided labor, but it made sense and was practical- more importantly, they were working together. Industrialization took the man out of the home. Not only did it take the man out of the home, and make his life totally separate from his family, but it is autocrat, patriarchy at its worst. I feel so sorry for those men who were worked like slaves if not worse then slaves, because a slave owner has an investment in a slave. An industrialist has no investment in a laborer. "Liberating women" to be part of this and women liking it, is a bit insane to me! And that liberation may not be good for family values?
From what I've read on anthropology studies on all continents, it seems patriarchy takes off when hunting is replaced by animal husbandry...especially herding livestock. In North American and Neolithic settlements of Eurasia, women did most of the planting, gathering and harvesting, while the men did hunting and fishing...though in many cultures women living in small settlements did a lot of snaring of small game...like rabbits. This early agricultural model typically divided power between men and women, where women ran household and village life while men looked after issues on the periphery...like deciding if and when moving would be necessary, defense from invaders in times of higher population density, but it seems the transition to male dominated cultural norms started after: tending animals and...another very important, mostly unrecognized factor...our ancients didn't have a clear concept of 'paternity certainty'...in other words, many 20th century wild hunter-gatherers often believed that every man a woman had sex with prior to pregnancy had a share in fatherhood! Not until the realization that one man, and only one man can be the father, is there a motivation to add women to the growing list of property, along with animals, to be accumulated as personal wealth....just like in the Bible!
Quote:
As for women choosing 4 F men. That is hormonal. Honest to God, when they ovalate they are attracted to the bad boys. What is really awful is this is subconscious and they not aware they are attracted because of their hormones. But for the rest of the month, they are attracted to the man who stays home and is a good husband and father.
In a world where keeping a man is not a life or death matter, women can be free to not care if a guy is husband material. What's funny is that the "pickup artists" like the asshole complaining about Danish women I mentioned before, being aggressive and even asking about penis size before they engage the sex negotiations any further, just makes these guys shrivel up! There is so much given away that a pickup artist...or someone who thinks he is has a fragile ego, and can only handle women he can view as prey/rather than competitive sex negotiators!
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Old February 18th, 2018, 06:39 AM   #370
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Todo ser humano é mentiroso - Every human being is a liar.
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