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Old June 7th, 2017, 11:07 AM   #151
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I explained it here:

There was nothing written into the Confederate Constitution regarding expansion that did not mirror Article IV of the US Constitution. It was not an expansion doctrine. It was the method of how new territory was admitted.
And that method is expansion.

Jeff Davis and crew could have written whatever they wanted into their constitution, the fact remains that they wrote publicly about their southern dreams for further expansion as well!
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Old June 7th, 2017, 11:08 AM   #152
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And that method is expansion.
No, it is procedural.
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Old June 10th, 2017, 09:07 AM   #153
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The document was not about slavery as an institution, but slavery as the major economic cog in the economic mechanism of the South, and that the federal government did not have the authority to abolish slavery, distort the representation in Congress, or harm the economy of the South.
If economics was the main reason for the Civil War, do you think the war would have still happened if some other economic cog had been in place instead of slavery? Suppose cotton could have been picked by trained pigeons. Would there have been northern opposition to pigeon keeping in order to suppress the economic might of the south? Would there have been pigeon states and non-pigeon states? Would the Republican Party have started in opposition to the free labor of pigeons being taken to the territories, and thus having more pigeon states created?
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Old June 10th, 2017, 09:24 AM   #154
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If economics was the main reason for the Civil War, do you think the war would have still happened if some other economic cog had been in place instead of slavery? Suppose cotton could have been picked by trained pigeons. Would there have been northern opposition to pigeon keeping in order to suppress the economic might of the south? Would there have been pigeon states and non-pigeon states? Would the Republican Party have started in opposition to the free labor of pigeons being taken to the territories, and thus having more pigeon states created?
An argument I have heard twice is that yes, if in fact there were trained pigeons doing the cotton picking, the South would have still felt threatened. They had to export their cotton to the heavily industrialized North for turning into cotton or later to Europe. So they still would have been economically dominated.

Now it would then have required fear of the Feds making pigeon labor illegal to trigger the war.

But you can't separate slaves as totally subjected humans from slaves as an economic necessity. The combine analogy has a bit of credence.

That is not my opinion. I don't have enough overall knowledge of the whole situation, merely a repetition of an argument I have heard from a couple of sources.

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Old June 10th, 2017, 09:35 AM   #155
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An argument I have heard twice is that yes, if in fact there were trained pigeons doing the cotton picking, the South would have still felt threatened. They had to export their cotton to the heavily industrialized North for turning into cotton or later to Europe. So they still would have been economically dominated.

That is not my opinion. I don't have enough overall knowledge of the whole situation, merely a repetition of an argument I have heard from a couple of sources.
The reason I'm asking is that I want to be sure that I'm not just stating "slavery is the reason for the war" without examining all the nuances of it. There were many people at the time who were opposed to slavery because the slaves were people, so I'm not sure that THOSE abolitionists would have been involved in the build-up of tensions that were rising for many years before the war, if the situation were pigeons instead. So a big part of the tension was about the institution and not just the economics.

(I see you added a few sentences while I was making my post. )
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Old June 10th, 2017, 01:48 PM   #156
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It would be about the wheat and the economics of the wheat. Combines produce nothing. Just as cotton in 1861. If the same volume of cotton could have been planted and harvested by another economically cheaper and efficient means, the South would not have used slaves regarding cotton.
But slavery is inherently evil, combines are not.
People knew slavery was evil, but some chose to defend evil.
They do not deserve to be honored or respected, and removing the trappings of honor and respect, put there by white supremacists to further an evil agenda, is fitting and proper.
People who fought for evil deserve no honor.
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Old June 11th, 2017, 01:54 AM   #157
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But slavery is inherently evil, combines are not.
People knew slavery was evil, but some chose to defend evil.
They do not deserve to be honored or respected, and removing the trappings of honor and respect, put there by white supremacists to further an evil agenda, is fitting and proper.
People who fought for evil deserve no honor.
The largest engraving in the world is carved on Stone Mountain, Georgia very close to Atlanta which depicts Robert E. Lee, Jefferson Davis and Stonewall Jackson riding horses with sabers. The City of Stone Mountain is right next door to Stone Mountain, the largest granite monolith east of the Mississippi River and all black and they don't pitch a bitch.
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Old June 11th, 2017, 04:25 AM   #158
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Well, this is all about rewriting history, and a lot of people won't accept that the history they learned in school has been made up, lied about, obfuscated with a lot of parts missing from later presentation to keep founding myths...especially the hero-worship of past leaders as part of the historical mythology.

If Hitler won the war, you can bet for sure that Germans two or three centuries from now would be passing by Hitler statues on their way into downtown public places!


AND thank you for bringing us BACK to the topic: Rewriting history. The point is that no one is rewriting anything. Statues and monuments can be taken down or changed without rewriting history. Our students will still be required to study American history. They will still be tested on the facts of the civil war and they probably won't give a 'twig' about it until they are older.
Dates, places, and statistics don't change. Statues and monuments can and do.
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Old June 11th, 2017, 04:43 AM   #159
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dates, places, and statistics don't change. Statues and monuments can and do.
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Old June 11th, 2017, 09:00 AM   #160
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The Civil War may not have been inevitable, but secession of the South was a given. The real clincher was when Lincoln managed to get elected with only 40% of the popular vote, and without carrying a single Southern State. He even offered in his pre-election speeches to support an constitutional amendment that would protect slavery where it currently existed in the South, but these overtures were ignored. The election results made it evident that southern states had been effectively eliminated from the democratic process. What is often overlooked is that Lincoln was not President when the first 7 States voted to leave the Union. The President was James Buchanan. The Confederacy was already formed before Lincoln took office. What triggered the fighting was when Lincoln moved Colonel Anderson's garrison from the mainland to Fort Sumter and attempted to dispatch reinforcements. Fort Sumter belonged to the State of South Carolina. This made it clear to the Palmetto Guard that Lincoln intended to use federal troops to seize property in violation of the sovereignty of a State.

Lincoln's actions would be akin today to Donald Trump--a minority president, I might add--using the Marines to invade and establish martial law in any "sanctuary city" that did not comply with his anti-immigration policy. Consider the outrage that such a blatant abuse of power would incinerate, and one can see that the Civil War was not about slavery until Lincoln redefined two years later it in the wake of his marginal victory at Antietam.
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Last edited by Asimov; June 11th, 2017 at 09:08 AM.
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