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Old June 4th, 2017, 01:52 PM   #61
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Old June 4th, 2017, 02:00 PM   #62
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I do not need to re-read my point. I know my point and I know history.
Perhaps in a parallel universe.

You either know your history or what you knew has changed since you made that post, as it proves my point.

Why don't you stop posting memes and debate then? Please explain what issue - other than wishing to retain the right to own slaves - caused secession.
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Old June 4th, 2017, 02:05 PM   #63
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Perhaps in a parallel universe.

You either know your history or what you knew has changed since you made that post, as it proves my point.

Why don't you stop posting memes and debate then? Please explain what issue - other than wishing to retain the right to own slaves - caused secession.
Your point comes from a bad public school history class, the Internet, or both. Making the statement "wishing to retain the right to own slaves..." proves my point, Arturius.
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Old June 4th, 2017, 02:09 PM   #64
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Adding context to history with newly discovered historical documents and artifacts is different than re-writing history. Re-writing history to force it to reflect an ideology or re-writing history through the lens of presentism is not acceptable.

It is re-writing history. It is looking at history through presentism. That is re-writing The re-writing of history regarding the Civil War coincidentally started during the civil rights era to reflect on that movement.
But wouldn't the initial presentation of history also be reflecting an ideology? Consider the monuments to Civil war generals. Why have a monument to someone if not to present that someone as a person to be remembered favorably throughout time? Every time you look at that monument, you are being forced to remember the honor that was bestowed upon that individual.

Adding context to the individual might tell us whether that individual is worthy of being remembered favorably. Consider a hypothetical memorial built to honor a firefighter who rescued 15 people from a fire. Years later, it is discovered that that firefighter was an arsonist. Should his memorial stay up? After all, he DID rescue 15 people, so his history in that particular incident was one of being a hero. But we also know more about him as a person, so our present knowledge in going to play a big factor in whether we continue to honor him with a monument. SHOULD our present knowledge be a factor, or should we just keep honoring all individuals that people in the past have decided to honor in spite of further added context?
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Old June 4th, 2017, 02:14 PM   #65
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My understanding comes from neither of those sources. Never good to assume, I find...

So please - again - explain what the cause was, if not slavery. You have thrown back the summary I gave at me, but I note you have not offered a counter argument.

And I am de Ganis

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Old June 4th, 2017, 02:18 PM   #66
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Your point comes from a bad public school history class, the Internet, or both. Making the statement "wishing to retain the right to own slaves..." proves my point, Arturius.
I see you didn't like the way de Ganis asked this question, but I'm also interested in the answer. Were there any secession issues which did not have a slavery component to them?
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Old June 4th, 2017, 02:25 PM   #67
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Perhaps in a parallel universe.

You either know your history or what you knew has changed since you made that post, as it proves my point.

Why don't you stop posting memes and debate then? Please explain what issue - other than wishing to retain the right to own slaves - caused secession.
I am far from a Civil War buff. However, from several sources I have been exposed to, it was suggested that slavery was almost more a symptom than a cause as follows.

The north was much more industrialized. They had the centers of capital and better power infrastructure. This economic strength was translating more and more into political strength. The only thing the south had to counter the economic power of the north's industrialization was cotton. And cotton, to be economical at the time needed cheap labor, ie slavery. And it was fear of political domination because of economic domination that led to the war.

That may well be nit-picking though.
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Old June 4th, 2017, 02:32 PM   #68
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Yeah, that's why the voted for him...LOL...
Doesn't it feel better to admit what a tool you are...LOL...
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Old June 4th, 2017, 02:34 PM   #69
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I am far from a Civil War buff. However, from several sources I have been exposed to, it was suggested that slavery was almost more a symptom than a cause as follows.

The north was much more industrialized. They had the centers of capital and better power infrastructure. This economic strength was translating more and more into political strength. The only thing the south had to counter the economic power of the north's industrialization was cotton. And cotton, to be economical at the time needed cheap labor, ie slavery. And it was fear of political domination because of economic domination that led to the war.

That may well be nit-picking though.
But even this explanation puts slavery right at the center. You said that the South's only counter to northern strength was cotton, and you clarified that it was slave-produced cotton. That clarification was important. They HAD to keep slave labor in order for their strength to continue to be a strength.
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Old June 4th, 2017, 02:37 PM   #70
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I am far from a Civil War buff. However, from several sources I have been exposed to, it was suggested that slavery was almost more a symptom than a cause as follows.

The north was much more industrialized. They had the centers of capital and better power infrastructure. This economic strength was translating more and more into political strength. The only thing the south had to counter the economic power of the north's industrialization was cotton. And cotton, to be economical at the time needed cheap labor, ie slavery. And it was fear of political domination because of economic domination that led to the war.

That may well be nit-picking though.

I don't take it as 'nit-picking' at all; I think it a fair analysis. However, as you have said it was the fact of holding slaves that gave the south any sort of 'muscle'. Slavery simply cannot be side-lined (and I don't believe for one minute that you are doing so); the southern states wished to retain slavery which is why they seceded. There are many other reasons that can be put forward as excuses - states' rights or self determination, but these are just that - excuses - and only arise because the states concerned wished to retain slavery.
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