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Old January 12th, 2018, 12:33 PM   #121
RNG
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Originally Posted by right to left View Post
How is that different than Saudi Arabia, Gulf emirates or any other petrostate dependent on oil exports for revenue? If Chavez was so dumb, how did he earn such massive support? One clear reason was he was the rare example of a military officer who refused to take orders from the US or their Venezuelan proxies.

Before Chavez got there, the money went to the top and everything that did not get siphoned off to US and international banks was taken by the rich.

<snip>
So why aren't Saudi and the Gulf states suffering Zimbabwe-like inflation, defaulting on their debt and have their citizens starving if they are the same economies?

Why is it that Chavez stopped the money from going to the top and being siphoned of to the US and international banks but things kept getting worse?

Because he did things really, really stupid. He just gave money away to those he felt needed it. The fact that he didn't have it didn't bother him at all. Just like the Republicans in the US though they send the money up rather than down.

Chavez ruined that country when he had a beautiful chance to improve it. Why was he so popular? Because he kept promising goodies and delivering when he had no way of doing so. But by then the people were also buying his lies that it was primarily US sabotage hurting their economy.

Another pair of liars.
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Old January 12th, 2018, 12:37 PM   #122
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Cut the bullshit! Venezuela is a social democratic state since Chavez...no different than the Euro social democrats! The economy in Venezuela is/and always has been run by capitalists and subject to the same trade and international monetary forces as every other capitalist nation subject to IMF and WTO controls.

What's different is that Chavez's "Bolivarian Revolution" took the bulk of the profits being earned by Venezuela from oil exports and diverted that money away from the wealthy oligarchs towards the impoverished majority...especially the indigenous majority! That's what made Chavez popular and even a CIA-engineered coup couldn't dislodge him from power to get the US-approved leadership back in control. Worth noting that in spite of the collapse in oil revenues, a capitalist pro-opposition TV and radio and imposing (for no goddammed reason) of US sanctions, Maduro's party still won back a governing majority in the latest legislative elections. They know the opposition will do nothing to improve their lot...except perhaps end sanctions!

Maduro's problems today stem more from NOT being a real socialist nation than bullshit claims in rightwing sources today, because the Venezuelan economy and government was dependent on the revenues coming in from oil, and like virtually every other petrostate in the world, oil exports depressed the development of industry and non-oil development, leading to the dependency on imports.

If Venezuela was a communist nation like Cuba, they could have instituted through five year plans, the process of diversifying the economy and ending dependence on foreign imports regardless of whether they exported oil or not.
Do you mind if I add some facts to what you have said?

Cuba: Reference Point For Social Progress - The Havana Reporter, your news source
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Cuestas also highlighted the fact that Cuba is in first place in Latin America and eleventh worldwide in relation to the youth development rate.
Not bad for a country that is kept poor by the US committing economic warfare. One might wonder where Cuba would rate if the economic warfare would stop?

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mother-to-child transmission of HIV has been eliminated, a parameter validated just one year ago by the United Nations HIV/ AIDS Program
How many nations can claim that?

The social progress of Cuba is amazing and one reason for this is the investment in education. When US capitalist were in charge, things were very bad.

Why Cuba is an education success story and what it can teach Africa
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Cuba takes education very seriously. It became a top priority after Fidel Castro became prime minister in 1959 and this helped the country shake its mantle as the most unequal of the Hispanic Caribbean territories during both the colonial and post colonial early 20th century periods.
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Old January 12th, 2018, 12:42 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by RNG View Post
So why aren't Saudi and the Gulf states suffering Zimbabwe-like inflation, defaulting on their debt and have their citizens starving if they are the same economies?

Why is it that Chavez stopped the money from going to the top and being siphoned of to the US and international banks but things kept getting worse?

Because he did things really, really stupid. He just gave money away to those he felt needed it. The fact that he didn't have it didn't bother him at all. Just like the Republicans in the US though they send the money up rather than down.

Chavez ruined that country when he had a beautiful chance to improve it. Why was he so popular? Because he kept promising goodies and delivering when he had no way of doing so. But by then the people were also buying his lies that it was primarily US sabotage hurting their economy.

Another pair of liars.
Ah, Venezuela. Their main foil. And it isn't because of socialism.

It's because they are sitting on an ocean of oil and won't let American oil companies get rich off of it at their expense.

And it eats their ass.

Chavez should make them an offer they can't refuse. He get's two thirds of every dollar made and they have to kiss his ass on national television for the privilege.
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Old January 12th, 2018, 01:08 PM   #124
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Ah, Venezuela. Their main foil. And it isn't because of socialism.

It's because they are sitting on an ocean of oil and won't let American oil companies get rich off of it at their expense.

And it eats their ass.

Chavez should make them an offer they can't refuse. He get's two thirds of every dollar made and they have to kiss his ass on national television for the privilege.
I have said many times it is not due to socialize. It is due to the stupidity of Chavez and Manduro.

Iran, Russia and Norway are sitting on an ocean of oil and won't let the American oil companies get rich off of it at their expense. So again, why is Venezuela the odd man out?

Because of their stupidity.
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Old January 12th, 2018, 01:38 PM   #125
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I have said many times it is not due to socialize. It is due to the stupidity of Chavez and Manduro.

Iran, Russia and Norway are sitting on an ocean of oil and won't let the American oil companies get rich off of it at their expense. So again, why is Venezuela the odd man out?

Because of their stupidity.
That's a good argument RNG.
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Old January 12th, 2018, 01:55 PM   #126
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You missed it.

Socialism. Wrong leaves you a slave to the state.

Crony capitalism. Wrong makes you a slave to the bank.

Reality. The state owes the bank, too.


My hand is raised! Question!!? They hate socialism--SO EVIL--but love Vlad Putin?? Adore Russia? Have nothing bad to say about Syria's Assad regime?

I must be confused.
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Old January 12th, 2018, 03:08 PM   #127
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Are you arguing for a tax-free nation with no publically owned services or infrastructure? Something closer to anarchy than civilization?

What is your understanding of evil? Is this one of those supernatural powers Christians believe in?
I've always wondered why they don't consider Somalia to be a libertarian paradise!
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Old January 12th, 2018, 03:19 PM   #128
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My hand is raised! Question!!? They hate socialism--SO EVIL--but love Vlad Putin?? Adore Russia? Have nothing bad to say about Syria's Assad regime?

I must be confused.
You are.
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Old January 12th, 2018, 03:20 PM   #129
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I've always wondered why they don't consider Somalia to be a libertarian paradise!
The same reason you dont think that north Korea is a socialist paradise
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Old January 12th, 2018, 03:48 PM   #130
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So why aren't Saudi and the Gulf states suffering Zimbabwe-like inflation, defaulting on their debt and have their citizens starving if they are the same economies?
Saudi Arabia's national debt has exploded since the oil crash
Saudi Arabia National Debt Budget 2017 report - Business Insider

No nation on Earth has ever had as much oil as Saudi Arabia...and as much oil that was as easy and profitable to develop...if you want to talk about squandering underground resources!

On the other hand, most of Venezuela's oil is and always has been heavy oil, which contains valuable byproducts, but is a less lucrative product. So, it should be plain and obvious that you can't make blanket comparisons from one oil producer to another. All SA and Venzuela have in common today is that they are both running out of oil, and the easy money will not come in much longer....same goes for other oil producers today. The Oil "Curse" applies wherever oil development and export has become the dominant industry.
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Why is it that Chavez stopped the money from going to the top and being siphoned of to the US and international banks but things kept getting worse?
It didn't get worse for the vast army of poor people in Venezuela...so stop bullshitting this story! Chavez and his successor diverted money to the poor BUT did not make structural changes to the economy! That is the litmus test of whether someone is an actual socialist or a liberal or social democrat capitalist!

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Because he did things really, really stupid. He just gave money away to those he felt needed it. The fact that he didn't have it didn't bother him at all. Just like the Republicans in the US though they send the money up rather than down.
Were you smoking something when you posted this?

Quote:
Chavez ruined that country when he had a beautiful chance to improve it. Why was he so popular? Because he kept promising goodies and delivering when he had no way of doing so. But by then the people were also buying his lies that it was primarily US sabotage hurting their economy.

Another pair of liars.
Whenever I come across busy online advocates for revolution in Venezuela, they have some financial interest if they have no family from there, and they keep recycling the same crap about Chavez that's neither here nor there.
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