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Old January 13th, 2018, 10:02 AM   #141
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Okay here is a blatant example of government controlled media. Social measures in Cuba are high. The economy is not because the US is committing economic warfare against Cuba, the same thing that caused the USSR economy to collapse and the number one weapon against Korea.

Perhaps we should have a thread for economic warfare and raise awareness of the harm this does. We might also talk about the CIA and how it was used to start rebellions and why Iran went from being friendly with the US to an enemy of the US.
My comments are in no way related to Cuba. Cuba has done a variety of really outstanding things for its citizens in the face of phenomenal difficulties with the loss of the Soviet subsidies and the draconian US embargoes.

All things considered I would consider aspects of the Cuban government very successful. Unfortunately they in part were able to achieve that by being a repressive dictatorship.

Having said that, Chavez also turned Venezuela into a repressive dictatorship, but still couldn't achieve good results because of his stupid economic policies.
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Old January 13th, 2018, 10:02 AM   #142
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Now we may have a disagreement? I am not sure and I hate to disagree with people I like, but- if I began a company I would want it in my control. Actually I did have my own small company. I am not a great business person, but I totally love working for myself, rather for someone else. This may not be so if a the employer used the democratic model. Then I might love letting someone else handle management because of the aspects of running a business I do not like.

I am in favor of the democratic model for industry and I believe in high tech industry where creativity is very important, there is a leaning towards the democratic model.
I'm not arguing for or against central planning; my point is that the capitalist arguments against the so called inefficiencies of communist state planning keep ignoring the fact that the same central planning strategies are applied by large corporations!
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Old January 13th, 2018, 10:10 AM   #143
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That is a wonderful collection of false facts. Venezuela has lots of conventional oil. And their heavy oil is just a little more viscous, nothing like the Canadian heavy oil reservoirs.
In fact, Canada and Venezuela have the same profiles as oil producers...the real oil is almost gone, and the only thing left in large quantities is heavy oil and tarsands, which is obviously more costly and difficult to develop. Canada still has free access to international financing, that's the only reason our tarsands operations are still functioning...though they are likely hiding huge losses with the decline in oil prices. Obviously, Venezuela under sanctions and punitive international banking policies does not have this luxury.
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And the grocery stores weren't empty till Chavez squandered the money. So no, all his handouts to the poor ended up hurting them more than others.

And given his diabolical success at becoming the de facto dictator of Venezuela should have made making structural changes easy-peasy. But shades of the Republican President, all he made was excuses for his own stupidity.

Get a grip.
Which is all neither here nor there, because my point all along has been that Venezuela is NOT a real socialist..let alone communist government! Chavismo was just a more beneficient...liberal kind of capitalism..but one considered too liberal by US and international oligarchs apparently, or maybe they just decide that liberalism is not an option outside of Canada and Western Europe! Because they've arranged coups in Honduras, Argentina, Brazil in the last five years because they were considered too socialistic for their liking! Obviously the same goes for Venezuela. So, Venezuela's corruption blah blah blah, I couldn't give a flying fuck about! Because CNN and rfight wing media are not talking about food riots in Sao Paolo, last year since Brazil is now the right kind of free market capitalist nation...fuck them all!
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Old January 13th, 2018, 08:27 PM   #144
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Same ole song, it’s never real socialism.

https://conservativetribune.com/sovi...ent=2018-01-13
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Old January 14th, 2018, 05:00 AM   #145
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Same ole song, it’s never real socialism.

https://conservativetribune.com/sovi...ent=2018-01-13
Try very hard to understand: capitalism murders ALL successful socialists as soon as they know they are there. Just as the US sometimes claim to be Christian, other capitalist regimes call themselves socialist. When we win, you'll knows. Promise.
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Old January 14th, 2018, 05:58 AM   #146
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Try very hard to understand: capitalism murders ALL successful socialists as soon as they know they are there. Just as the US sometimes claim to be Christian, other capitalist regimes call themselves socialist. When we win, you'll knows. Promise.
Like the people on Russia, Cuba , Venezuela, China, North Korea, etc. were promised? Millions killed, millions enslaved, millions impoverished.
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Old January 14th, 2018, 06:28 AM   #147
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I'm not arguing for or against central planning; my point is that the capitalist arguments against the so called inefficiencies of communist state planning keep ignoring the fact that the same central planning strategies are applied by large corporations!
Interesting point.

So exactly what is wrong with socialism? I thought we were talking about distributing the wealth equitably and did not think we were talking about central planning, versus what? Are there good pictures of the different models so that I might understand what we are talking about? Is there a list of problems with central planning?
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Old January 14th, 2018, 06:47 AM   #148
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Like the people on Russia, Cuba , Venezuela, China, North Korea, etc. were promised? Millions killed, millions enslaved, millions impoverished.
China is perhaps the best example of what can go wrong, but folks Trump is just as bad and Moa and let me explain.

The US had its civil war, so please, let us not stand on the fact that those humans settled a power conflict with violence as though we have not done the same.

What has been different is the US government governed but did not control things, and that has dramatically changed. Perhaps we need to slow down and take a closer look at the increasing control of the US government and specifically the increasing power of the president. This is seriously important with a president like Trump, who does not read and makes decisions with insufficient information, like Moa.

There was so much dying under Moa because he ordered everyone to plant seeds very deep in the ground leading to crop failure and the starvation of millions. He did not intentionally kill all these people. Now we have a president who also ignores science and is undoing all the policies to protect our environment and this dangerously threatens our environment. Like the deforestation of Easter Island, the bad effects are not obvious to the casual observer without science and studying the results. But the damage to our environment is as bad if not worse than Moa ordering seeds be planted very deep. The only difference I can see is the amount of time it takes for the bad results to be obvious. I am not seeing a big difference in power.
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Old January 14th, 2018, 07:00 AM   #149
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In fact, Canada and Venezuela have the same profiles as oil producers...the real oil is almost gone, and the only thing left in large quantities is heavy oil and tarsands, which is obviously more costly and difficult to develop. Canada still has free access to international financing, that's the only reason our tarsands operations are still functioning...though they are likely hiding huge losses with the decline in oil prices. Obviously, Venezuela under sanctions and punitive international banking policies does not have this luxury.


Which is all neither here nor there, because my point all along has been that Venezuela is NOT a real socialist..let alone communist government! Chavismo was just a more beneficient...liberal kind of capitalism..but one considered too liberal by US and international oligarchs apparently, or maybe they just decide that liberalism is not an option outside of Canada and Western Europe! Because they've arranged coups in Honduras, Argentina, Brazil in the last five years because they were considered too socialistic for their liking! Obviously the same goes for Venezuela. So, Venezuela's corruption blah blah blah, I couldn't give a flying fuck about! Because CNN and rfight wing media are not talking about food riots in Sao Paolo, last year since Brazil is now the right kind of free market capitalist nation...fuck them all!
Frustration! I can understand why oil is being mentioned, but our discussions would be more productive if the subject were clear and we stayed on subject. Oil and economics needs to be its own subject. Every oil producing country is hurting with the US increased oil production, and this is a serious problem in Saudi Arabia. In 1973 OPEC was able to bring the US to its knees and the result was the Reagan administration and the huge military buildup, including granting arms to the Bin Ladin and Saddam. come on- how can we make sense of what is wrong with socialism if we include oil and economics in this discussion?
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Old January 14th, 2018, 08:54 AM   #150
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China is perhaps the best example of what can go wrong, but folks Trump is just as bad and Moa and let me explain.

The US had its civil war, so please, let us not stand on the fact that those humans settled a power conflict with violence as though we have not done the same.

What has been different is the US government governed but did not control things, and that has dramatically changed. Perhaps we need to slow down and take a closer look at the increasing control of the US government and specifically the increasing power of the president. This is seriously important with a president like Trump, who does not read and makes decisions with insufficient information, like Moa.

There was so much dying under Moa because he ordered everyone to plant seeds very deep in the ground leading to crop failure and the starvation of millions. He did not intentionally kill all these people. Now we have a president who also ignores science and is undoing all the policies to protect our environment and this dangerously threatens our environment. Like the deforestation of Easter Island, the bad effects are not obvious to the casual observer without science and studying the results. But the damage to our environment is as bad if not worse than Moa ordering seeds be planted very deep. The only difference I can see is the amount of time it takes for the bad results to be obvious. I am not seeing a big difference in power.
So much of what you believe just ain’t so. There is no widespread deforestation going on in the US. Trump has nothing to do with Easter island.
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