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Old January 17th, 2018, 08:43 AM   #171
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Take a look at China and Vietnam right now. Although in both cases their "communism" is a far cry from the Marx and Engels concept. They are more plutocracies.

Actually, even the good standby North Korea is more a dictatorship than communism.

About the closest to true communism the world has seen, IMO is Cuba till about 20 years ago.
For a similar example, if more extreme, compare the New Testament with the current 'Christian' United States. Cuba has at least a decent health service, and devotes serious efforts to dealing with typhoons, or whatever you call them.
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Old January 17th, 2018, 08:43 AM   #172
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Which means Cuba only worked until they ran out of Russia’s money.
You're funny !!! The US has had a strangle hold on the Cuban economy for more than 50 years now. But their failures are the result of a lack of soviet money ?? LOLOLOL

In his own way Castro won. For more than 50 years he stood toe to toe and and eyeball to eyeball with the great United States and never blinked. He went to his grave as defiant as the day he took power.

Of course the down side is his people have suffered for that defiance.

I have to wonder if raising the embargo and having full diplomatic and economic ties wouldn't have done far more to further our interests there ??
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Old January 24th, 2018, 08:03 AM   #173
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You're funny !!! The US has had a strangle hold on the Cuban economy for more than 50 years now. But their failures are the result of a lack of soviet money ?? LOLOLOL

In his own way Castro won. For more than 50 years he stood toe to toe and and eyeball to eyeball with the great United States and never blinked. He went to his grave as defiant as the day he took power.

Of course the down side is his people have suffered for that defiance.

I have to wonder if raising the embargo and having full diplomatic and economic ties wouldn't have done far more to further our interests there ??
According to the health and personal wellbeing statistics, the quality of life in Cuba did not suffer from the embargoes and being closed off from the forces of globalization other than tourism! And that reminds me of something I was going to post earlier regarding using GDP and especially - per capita GDP as the yardstick to measure any and everything in a society.

What should be obvious is that any activity that is not/or cannot be monetized, is effectively zero by using this method. So, all of the peasant farmers and livestock herders all over the world, that grow food for their own families and sell or trade the surplus at the local village market, are creating little or no economic value according to the beancounters...who lament their poverty...as if they give a shit! But, in every nation where the strategy of "clearing the commons" has been applied....starting in England three centuries ago, and now consuming what's left of Africa and Asia, has been forcing people off the land, either at the point of a gun or by simply flooding every local market with cheap grains and other high carb/low nutrition foods. In recent times, flooding the markets to clear the commons in the third world has gone on covertly under the guise of "food aid" when that Green Revolution bullshit was in full swing back 50 years ago...put that in your pipe and smoke it...all you rightwingers bitching about "supporting the rest of the world!" The Green Revolution that was kicked off by the Ford and Rockefeller Foundations was just part of the overt and covert strategies that force people off the land and into the cities to work in industrial sweatshops that just showed up and need lots of low cost workers. These people...whether we're talking Bangladesh, Haiti, Mexico, Vietnam or China are all of a sudden much richer according to the GDP valuations; because they now have to work for meagre wages, pay rent/rather than build some kind of house on ancestral land, and buy food..typically poor quality and even loaded with pathogens..but they are receiving and exchanging money every step of the way, and the neoliberal capitalist economists can look at GDP and per capita GDP numbers for a "booming" nation like Bangladesh and proclaim how wonderful their economic growth is. That per capita number is especially suspect when even Bangladesh has created a new class of billionaires in the midst of abject poverty!

But is their quality of life better after industrialization and being forced off the land? Not according to the people who have had to make the migration into the cities. All the bullshit we hear about capitalism promoting economic choice and freedom, and the people forced to leave the land feel like they've lost all their freedoms and become wage slaves! They have no choice about the hours they work or the working conditions, or the rent they pay for squalid rooms or apartments, or the dodgy cheapest foods they have to buy to feed themselves with.

So, when it comes back to the fight between Democrats and Republicans over whether to end the Embargo or re-open "free trade" with Cuba, I don't see good guy vs bad guy, just one form of capitalist despot vs another!

Last edited by right to left; January 24th, 2018 at 08:08 AM.
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Old March 25th, 2018, 07:23 AM   #174
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So why aren't Saudi and the Gulf states suffering Zimbabwe-like inflation, defaulting on their debt and have their citizens starving if they are the same economies?

Why is it that Chavez stopped the money from going to the top and being siphoned of to the US and international banks but things kept getting worse?

Because he did things really, really stupid. He just gave money away to those he felt needed it. The fact that he didn't have it didn't bother him at all. Just like the Republicans in the US though they send the money up rather than down.

Chavez ruined that country when he had a beautiful chance to improve it. Why was he so popular? Because he kept promising goodies and delivering when he had no way of doing so. But by then the people were also buying his lies that it was primarily US sabotage hurting their economy.

Another pair of liars.
Are you saying Cubans were not much better off after Chavez gained control than the US was in control?

How could Cuba possibly have a good economy when the Us does it all it can to prevent that?

I think the facts make Chavez a hero of his peopland the we should be ashamed for exploiting people and their resources around the world and not doing as much for them as the communist. Had we done as well, there would not have been a successful revolution and a large part of the world would not see us as evil and their enemy.


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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Cuba
The Cuban Revolution in 1959 brought lots of changes to the country, especially for women. "Before the Revolution many women lived as housewives and for those who needed to work there were very few choices." Many women in rural areas worked in agriculture and for women in the city working as a maid or prostitute were the only choices. The Federation of Cuban Women (FMC) was founded in August 1960 with a clear goal to involve all women in Cuban affairs. After years of being excluded, the women of Cuba began to play an active role in the government. The FMC wanted to see women involved with the social, political, economical and cultural issues Cuba faced.[11] This required that schools and programs be built to provide multiple services to Cuban women.

The Literacy Campaign was created to increase Cuba’s literacy rate and to initiate communication between the countryside and cities.[12] Students and volunteers went to rural areas to teach people to read and provide information on current Cuban politics. Rural women received schooling and job training if they chose to receive it, which allowed them to work outside of agriculture. For women working as prostitutes in the cities the new government created programs to reeducate them once prostitution in Cuba was suppressed in 1961. Separate but similar programs were created for maids, offering schooling and job training along with free daycare and housing, which allowed the women full opportunity to rebuild their lives. Healthcare was provided focusing on the mental health of Cuban women that had previously been oppressed in the work place.[13] Skills to build confidence and pride were taught because the new government believed that all women deserved dignity. The Cuban Revolution brought about drastic change for women allowing them to become very active in their own country, which is what many in the revolution hoped for.[citation needed]
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Old March 25th, 2018, 10:38 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by BubbaJones View Post
You're funny !!! The US has had a strangle hold on the Cuban economy for more than 50 years now. But their failures are the result of a lack of soviet money ?? LOLOLOL

In his own way Castro won. For more than 50 years he stood toe to toe and and eyeball to eyeball with the great United States and never blinked. He went to his grave as defiant as the day he took power.

Of course the down side is his people have suffered for that defiance.

I have to wonder if raising the embargo and having full diplomatic and economic ties wouldn't have done far more to further our interests there ??
Obama did normalize relationships with Cuba and Trump undid what Obama did. Trump ruined the economic hopes of Cubans by destroying their economic opportunites, such as the tourist businesses some bed breakfast people hoped to have, thanks to Obama and killed by Trump.

Castro is dead. What is Trump's excuse for ruining the economic hopes of Cubans?
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Old March 25th, 2018, 10:53 AM   #176
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For a similar example, if more extreme, compare the New Testament with the current 'Christian' United States. Cuba has at least a decent health service, and devotes serious efforts to dealing with typhoons, or whatever you call them.
There is a test for people's moral level that does not work in communist countries. For the test to work, there must be agreement that no one gets life-saving medication unless s/he can pay for it. The test doesn't work in communist countries because in a communist country it is immoral to withhold medicine until it is paid for. Obviously, the US is not functioning on this higher level of morality.

Perhaps we have not advanced socialism because our level or morality is relatively low?

Quote:
https://www.education.com/reference/...ral-reasoning/
Collect This Article
By T. M McDevitt|J. E. Ormrod — Pearson Allyn Bacon Prentice Hall
Updated on Jul 20, 2010
After obtaining hundreds of responses to moral dilemmas, one groundbreaking cognitive-developmental psychologist, Lawrence Kohlberg, proposed that the development of moral reasoning is characterized by a sequence of six stages grouped into three general levels of morality: preconventional, conventional, and postconventional. The table below lists and describes Kohlberg's three levels and six stages of moral reasoning.

Level Age Range Stage Nature of Moral Reasoning
Level I: Preconventional Morality Seen in preschool children, most elementary school students, some junior high school students, and a few high school students Stage 1: Punishment-avoidance and obedience People make decisions based on what is best for themselves, without regard for others' needs or feelings. They obey rules only if established by more powerful individuals; they may disobey if they aren't likely to get caught. "Wrong" behaviors are those that will be punished.

Stage 2: Exchange of favors People recognize that others also have needs. They may try to satisfy others' needs if their own needs are also met ("you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours"). They continue to define right and wrong primarily in terms of consequences to themselves.
Level II: Conventional Morality Seen in a few older elementary school students, some junior high school students, and many high school students
(Stage 4 typically does not appear until the high school years)

Stage 3: Good boy/girl People make decisions based on what actions will please others, especially authority figures and other individuals with high status (e.g., teachers, popular peers). They are concerned about maintaining relationships through sharing, trust, and loyalty, and they take other people's perspectives and intentions into account when making decisions.

Stage 4: Law and order People look to society as a whole for guidelines about right or wrong. They know rules are necessary for keeping society running smoothly and believe it is their "duty" to obey them. However, they perceive rules to be inflexible; they don't necessarily recognize that as society's needs change, rules should change as well.
Level II: Postconventional Morality Rarely seen before college (Stage 6 is extremely rare even in adults)

Stage 5: Social contract People recognize that rules represent agreements among many individuals about appropriate behavior. Rules are seen as potentially useful mechanisms that can maintain the general social order and protect individual rights, rather than as absolute dictates that must be obeyed simply because they are "the law." People also recognize the flexibility of rules; rules that no longer serve society's best interests can and should be changed.

Stage 6: Universal ethical principle Stage 6 is a hypothetical, "ideal" stage that few people ever reach. People in this stage adhere to a few abstract, universal principles (e.g., equality of all people, respect for human dignity, commitment to justice) that transcend specific norms and rules. They answer to a strong inner conscience and willingly disobey laws that violate their own ethical principles.
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Old March 25th, 2018, 08:36 PM   #177
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Yes, the basics have already been covered by others here, but what's important to take away is that when a communist party becomes a select elite class with restricted membership, it doesn't have to listen to working class majority...
And then it is no longer a communist party. It is no more than a corrupt party with the word "communist" in its name, and meaning nothing.
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Old March 25th, 2018, 08:46 PM   #178
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And then it is no longer a communist party. It is no more than a corrupt party with the word "communist" in its name, and meaning nothing.
No they are communists.. Socialism (of which communism is a form) requires an elite ruling class.. That is why socialism becomes totally corrupt.

Capitalism can be Corrupted but the final power is in the consumer. But Socialism after a period becames totally corrupt.
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Old March 25th, 2018, 08:48 PM   #179
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And then it is no longer a communist party. It is no more than a corrupt party with the word "communist" in its name, and meaning nothing.
There has never been a Communist nation that has not occurred. The only Communist nations that have reversed that in anyway our the ones who embraced capitalism. See China or Vietnam as example.
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Old March 25th, 2018, 08:49 PM   #180
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There has never been a Communist nation that has not occurred. The only Communist nations that have reversed that in anyway our the ones who embraced capitalism. See China or Vietnam as example.
They have to embrace capitalism or they will fail.
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