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Old April 11th, 2018, 08:19 PM   #281
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You are quick to launch character assassinations and attacks when you lose an argument. That suggests you are the youngster here, still wet behind the ears. I'm a Vietnam veteran. Does that give you a hint about my age, child?

I saw the forum title when I discovered this place: "Defending the Truth". I see now that my expectations were unrealistic. This is no different than any other politics forum. It's all about trying to know the other guy down so he can't get up. You're all so pathetic.

I won't be back. Have a good time.
He left w/o ever defining his position that is unfortunate.
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Old April 12th, 2018, 07:22 AM   #282
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He left w/o ever defining his position that is unfortunate.
I don't think he realized he was being offensive? At least I had a bad reaction to some of his post and I regret that. Given what he knew I thought he was much younger. He also thought I was younger. It is amazing how we can share this planet with others and have such different views of reality.
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Old April 12th, 2018, 07:42 AM   #283
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I lost track of this post while I was having computer problems. First question: didn't Sparta issue coins made of iron? And Athens' participatory democracy was just among an exclusive club of rich men....especially if we consider the slave population outnumbered freemen two to one.

And as I see it, capitalism means concentration of wealth in fewer hands..... not freedom! Capitalism gives us dollaraucracy/ not democracy.
Thanks for the question. It led to a google search and new information for me.

The iron used in Sparta could hardly be considered coins as we understand coins.

Quote:
https://coinweek.com/featured-news/a...-coins-sparta/
The first-century historian Plutarch says of the legendary Spartan lawgiver, Lycurgus (7th century BCE):

“…HE COMMANDED THAT ALL GOLD AND SILVER COIN SHOULD BE CALLED IN, AND THAT ONLY A SORT OF MONEY MADE OF IRON SHOULD BE CURRENT, A GREAT WEIGHT AND QUANTITY OF WHICH WAS BUT VERY LITTLE WORTH; SO THAT TO LAY UP TWENTY OR THIRTY POUNDS THERE WAS REQUIRED A PRETTY LARGE CLOSET, AND, TO REMOVE IT, NOTHING LESS THAN A YOKE OF OXEN…FOR THE IRON MONEY COULD NOT BE CARRIED INTO THE REST OF GREECE, NOR HAD IT ANY VALUE THERE, BUT WAS RATHER HELD IN RIDICULE.”.....

Because Sparta sometimes allied with Persia, and received Persian subsidies during its long wars with Athens, Spartans would have been familiar with the Persian daric – at 8.4 grams and over 95% pure, the most common high-value gold coin used by Greeks before the time of Alexander the Great.
And Spartan coins come up again because of war another war.

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Areus, a member of the Agiad dynasty who ruled from 309 to 265 BCE, was the first Spartan king to issue coins in his own name. This break with tradition was driven by the need to pay mercenaries in his war against Macedonia, Sparta no longer having the manpower to raise a citizen army. Ironically, Areus’s silver tetradrachm was closely modeled on the widely circulating Macedonian coinage of Alexander, with the head of Herakles on the obverse and an image of Zeus enthroned holding an eagle on the reverse. Only the inscription “King Areus” indicates the source. Just four examples of this remarkable coin are known, three in museums.
For most of Spartan history, people could not buy all the things the Athenians enjoyed, giving the individual in Athens individuality. Without money accepted by others, a Spartan could have only what Spartan produced through slave labor. Our word "sparse" comes from their name, Spartan. Spartans took pride in having very harsh lives and being very frugal.

According to the history I have been listening to (college lectures), Athens was not that much better when compared to Persian. Persian had a much more advanced culture. I am learning how biased our history has been and I am wanting to learn more.

I am adding to my post that having money that is accepted by others is very important to freedom. We seriously do not want government controlling what can or cannot have, nor how much of something we have and our ability to sell it.
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Last edited by Athena; April 12th, 2018 at 08:11 AM.
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Old April 13th, 2018, 04:02 AM   #284
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Thanks for the question. It led to a google search and new information for me.

The iron used in Sparta could hardly be considered coins as we understand coins.



And Spartan coins come up again because of war another war.



For most of Spartan history, people could not buy all the things the Athenians enjoyed, giving the individual in Athens individuality. Without money accepted by others, a Spartan could have only what Spartan produced through slave labor. Our word "sparse" comes from their name, Spartan. Spartans took pride in having very harsh lives and being very frugal.

According to the history I have been listening to (college lectures), Athens was not that much better when compared to Persian. Persian had a much more advanced culture. I am learning how biased our history has been and I am wanting to learn more.

I am adding to my post that having money that is accepted by others is very important to freedom. We seriously do not want government controlling what can or cannot have, nor how much of something we have and our ability to sell it.
Out of a pretty nasty society Athens was exploding great walls of crap in some areas - philosophy, a sort of 'science', drama,mass literacy, and fair play, the nearest thing to democracy so far. Its attitude to women, slavery and various other things was sick. Only mugs spend time looking for models, and history is not now.
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Old April 14th, 2018, 08:38 AM   #285
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Out of a pretty nasty society Athens was exploding great walls of crap in some areas - philosophy, a sort of 'science', drama,mass literacy, and fair play, the nearest thing to democracy so far. Its attitude to women, slavery and various other things was sick. Only mugs spend time looking for models, and history is not now.
I am not sure of your meaning. I am glad to discuss the shortcomings of Athen's culture and what might have been better with the Persians. I only recently learned of such things and I love to discuss information that is new to me. I love watching DVD's of professors discussing history, and then use this information in conversations. It is like being a student only I don't have to drive anywhere or pay anything for this wonderful education.

I think we are in the "resurrection" and that it is our spiritual job to learn as much about our past as we possibly can. The geologist, anthropologist, and related sciences are revealing our past, and our consciousness must transform if we are going to survive. That information is very important to our transformation.
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Old April 14th, 2018, 12:03 PM   #286
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Thanks for the question. It led to a google search and new information for me.

The iron used in Sparta could hardly be considered coins as we understand coins.



And Spartan coins come up again because of war another war.



For most of Spartan history, people could not buy all the things the Athenians enjoyed, giving the individual in Athens individuality. Without money accepted by others, a Spartan could have only what Spartan produced through slave labor. Our word "sparse" comes from their name, Spartan. Spartans took pride in having very harsh lives and being very frugal.

According to the history I have been listening to (college lectures), Athens was not that much better when compared to Persian. Persian had a much more advanced culture. I am learning how biased our history has been and I am wanting to learn more.

I am adding to my post that having money that is accepted by others is very important to freedom. We seriously do not want government controlling what can or cannot have, nor how much of something we have and our ability to sell it.
Most of my information comes from books that have had a great influence on me; one of them, I've mentioned many times before: Extracted, by Ugo Bardi and Jorgen Randers. Lead author- Italian geochemist Ugo Bardi, wanted a book that would show people the whole life history of metals and minerals from how and when they got buried in underground deposits, through the early and later human exploitations of these resources, and especially on the impacts they've had on how and why certain empires have risen and fallen.

Most of the time we are only aware of gold, and the impact it had on driving the Spanish and Portuguese empires for a time, but so many other metals and resources have been crucial in the past and especially are in our day of high tech civilization.

I didn't recall Bardi even mentioning Athens or Sparta or classical Greek civilization, and when I did a search for Athens, it seems that he considers it more of a footnote in between the Persian and Roman empires that get most of his attention. But, for Athens, I'm wondering if any part of your course work on Ancient Greece mentioned the importance of controlling silver mining and production to the wealth and rise of Athens back then! A lot of space is devoted to what Greek philosophers and playwrights had to say...they certainly had a great impact on western culture, philosophy and the development of religion, but these things were not the sources of Athens's political, military or economic success!

Quote:
But on the western edge of the Persian Empire the city of Athens, beyond the western border of the empire, managed to control the silver mines of Laurium, southeast of the city. Laurium was the site of one of the richest deposits of precious metals of that age, and its mines played a fundamental role in the conflict that pitted a coalition of Greek cities against the Persian Empire led by King Xerxes. Athens used the revenues of the Laurium mines to build the powerful military fleet that destroyed the Persian fleet at the Battle of Salamis in 480 BCE, putting an end forever to Persia’s attempt to expand into Greece. Empires are by their very nature unstable structures; they can exist only by either expanding or contracting. With the defeat at Salamis, the Persian Empire entered an irreversible spiral of decline, perhaps also caused by the depletion of its gold mines. Instead, the silver of Laurium pushed Athens to a brief imperial period in which it dominated the central Mediterranean region. Athens declined with the decline of the Laurium mines, while the rise of the Macedonian kingdom, with Philip II, seems to have been linked to the discovery of silver in Macedonia and to development of mining there.29" (from "Extracted: How the Quest for Mineral Wealth Is Plundering the Planet" by Ugo Bardi, Jorgen Randers)
http://a.co/icInNXF

Having a virtual monopoly on any precious metal is enough to guarantee a lot of easy money and comfort for at least a few people in any given society. And the sudden flush of wealth from silver mines would explain a great deal of why Athens's democracy was mostly in name only! Since there were such great disparities in wealth even among the freemen of the City. And why the experiment with participatory democracy couldn't last!

I don't know much about Sparta..except for the 'City of Soldiers' references, but Sparta's relative lack of wealth might mean that they were actually a more egalitarian society than Athens! And, there would have been a lot fewer material possessions to fight over, certainly.
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Old April 15th, 2018, 05:13 AM   #287
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I am not sure of your meaning. I am glad to discuss the shortcomings of Athen's culture and what might have been better with the Persians. I only recently learned of such things and I love to discuss information that is new to me. I love watching DVD's of professors discussing history, and then use this information in conversations. It is like being a student only I don't have to drive anywhere or pay anything for this wonderful education.

I think we are in the "resurrection" and that it is our spiritual job to learn as much about our past as we possibly can. The geologist, anthropologist, and related sciences are revealing our past, and our consciousness must transform if we are going to survive. That information is very important to our transformation.
History is something on which we are dependent on others for what information we can get, and we should never turn it into any sort of model. Obviously we should spend as much time discussing it as we can, but the bits I know most about (I'm fascinated by post-Roman Britain) suggest that most history is very poor propaganda written by muddled incompetents, or liars who are using extremely inadequate sand poorly understood sources.
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Old April 15th, 2018, 08:25 AM   #288
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Most of my information comes from books that have had a great influence on me; one of them, I've mentioned many times before: Extracted, by Ugo Bardi and Jorgen Randers. Lead author- Italian geochemist Ugo Bardi, wanted a book that would show people the whole life history of metals and minerals from how and when they got buried in underground deposits, through the early and later human exploitations of these resources, and especially on the impacts they've had on how and why certain empires have risen and fallen.

Most of the time we are only aware of gold, and the impact it had on driving the Spanish and Portuguese empires for a time, but so many other metals and resources have been crucial in the past and especially are in our day of high tech civilization.

I didn't recall Bardi even mentioning Athens or Sparta or classical Greek civilization, and when I did a search for Athens, it seems that he considers it more of a footnote in between the Persian and Roman empires that get most of his attention. But, for Athens, I'm wondering if any part of your course work on Ancient Greece mentioned the importance of controlling silver mining and production to the wealth and rise of Athens back then! A lot of space is devoted to what Greek philosophers and playwrights had to say...they certainly had a great impact on western culture, philosophy and the development of religion, but these things were not the sources of Athens's political, military or economic success!


http://a.co/icInNXF

Having a virtual monopoly on any precious metal is enough to guarantee a lot of easy money and comfort for at least a few people in any given society. And the sudden flush of wealth from silver mines would explain a great deal of why Athens's democracy was mostly in name only! Since there were such great disparities in wealth even among the freemen of the City. And why the experiment with participatory democracy couldn't last!

I don't know much about Sparta..except for the 'City of Soldiers' references, but Sparta's relative lack of wealth might mean that they were actually a more egalitarian society than Athens! And, there would have been a lot fewer material possessions to fight over, certainly.
Thanks for the book title and willingness to discuss what minerals have to do with world history.
And some people say history isn't important. Obviously they don't know much about history, or they remember facts but do not understand the meaning of them.

Sparta was the first socialist military state. All males joined the military when they came of age and their preparation for adulthood was brutal. Sparta was 100% dependent on a slave population because they did nothing to provide for themselves and they did not have to because the state provided all their needs.

Athens imitated Sparta when it became necessary to defend against Persian invasions. Athens had no budget for war. There were a few rich people who could hire people to defend their personal property, but the population fleed Athens and watched from a distance when Persia destroyed it. To change this, Athens imitated Sparta short of providing for individuals. People were given a say in government and some were given paid government jobs, but not their daily needs.

Can we progress to the huge change of paid government employees and the change in bureaucratic order this demands? Like if you want to go there, I have to pull out a book and start reading because this change goes with a change in public education (being technological correct rather personally in charge).

Oh my, there is soooo much we can talk about when speaking of the rise and fall of civilizations, but I don't think anyone is prepared to do this. It is about a few people being in charge and personal (Trump and his chosen men), so everything is running on a code of honor, shifting to amoral bureaucratic order. The increase in people power, is also a decrease in individual power and the virtues promoted when rule is by a few nobles. If I am to support this argument I have a lot of research to do. My understanding of this is too vague at the moment, but perhaps a little better than common understanding because of the way "his story" is written. History being "his story", not "our story" and what happens when the bureaucratic shift is made. Of course, part of this is, what is needed for war, and who has the money (control of the land and the silver mine, etc.).

Oh, oh yes, Athens was a back water, make no difference spect on the earth until SILVER on the other side of the water and on the skirts of Persia territory.
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Last edited by Athena; April 15th, 2018 at 08:30 AM.
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Old April 15th, 2018, 09:49 AM   #289
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History is something on which we are dependent on others for what information we can get, and we should never turn it into any sort of model. Obviously we should spend as much time discussing it as we can, but the bits I know most about (I'm fascinated by post-Roman Britain) suggest that most history is very poor propaganda written by muddled incompetents, or liars who are using extremely inadequate sand poorly understood sources.
I think if you were watching the DVD's of history that I am watching, your opinion would radically change. Before these lectures, I would have agreed with you. However, I am now getting a radically different lesson in history. My opinion of Athens has plummeted! A few wise men do not make a population of geniuses and all civilizations have had their wise men.

Wise men do not normally make history, but they may influence it.

Mineral wealth, on the other hand, is the cause of wars and determines the victor of wars. This results in a power shift that looks great but is often the beginning of the end. Consider ancient civilizations lasted for thousands of years. Minal resources may last only a couple of decades, and when they are exhausted, the civilization dependent on them dies within a couple hundred of years. I think we correctly call these mineral resource dependent civilizations the BEAST because they can only survive by consuming the finite resources and they consume all the civilization's resources to keep control of the mineral sources, including the humans born to them (war).
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Old April 17th, 2018, 07:28 AM   #290
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Thanks for the book title and willingness to discuss what minerals have to do with world history.
And some people say history isn't important. Obviously they don't know much about history, or they remember facts but do not understand the meaning of them.
Thanks again!
History has always been a subject skewed by the powerful who set the course for education from early childhood through university course curriculums, and there was too much attention given to memorizing dates, along with too much written about the wars/with little space devoted to domestic issues and concerns, but at least there was some attempt to teach history in the past!

I don't know how well it relates, but have you ever tried watching the History Channel in the last several years? Any time I tune in or check the program list, I can never find anything even slightly historically relevant!

Anyone who doesn't understand why a historical knowledge and perspective is important, can look at how US military planners are using the same script over and over again in Syria! Accuse the Syrian government of carrying out some kind of poison gas attack/ launch a bombing campaign shortly after(prior to any investigations) against sites declared to be sources of poison gas production/rinse and repeat! No official US Gov attempts have been made to prove the last poison gas attack was caused by the Syrian Gov.."Mad dog" Mattis even admitted to this...but received no follow up questions from MSM like "why not?"

And with the general decline of attention spans, all it will take is a few weeks and the MSM and idiots who follow their drivel on a daily basis will be like a pack of greyhounds chasing the next mechanical rabbit down the track!

I am convinced that people who have a full understanding of history, are at least somewhat aware of how major powers (including) or maybe even especially the US have engaged in false flag attacks in the past that are fully revealed decades later..as in the case of the Vietnam War, and more recently by insurgent media like Wikileaks. If more people had some familiarity with history, they could place issues into context...like how did these wars begin in the first place? The questions CNN never asks or is willing to explore.
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Sparta was the first socialist military state. All males joined the military when they came of age and their preparation for adulthood was brutal. Sparta was 100% dependent on a slave population because they did nothing to provide for themselves and they did not have to because the state provided all their needs.

Athens imitated Sparta when it became necessary to defend against Persian invasions. Athens had no budget for war. There were a few rich people who could hire people to defend their personal property, but the population fleed Athens and watched from a distance when Persia destroyed it. To change this, Athens imitated Sparta short of providing for individuals. People were given a say in government and some were given paid government jobs, but not their daily needs.
I do recall that once Sparta became a "City of Soldiers" likely to throw off foreign invaders, they were forever dependent on maintaining that garrison state because full time soldiers aren't out in the fields growing and harvesting food or making necessary products- including their own weapons and armor!

But, the same could be said for Rome! Which after achieving great wealth and material success from invading and enslaving neighbors as captured provinces, they had to continue recruiting more citizens for more wars ever after, even under later...apparently intelligent emperors like Trajan and Marcus Aurelius, who knew and wrote about the folly of being in a state of war with no end! Does anything sound familiar with the modern day state of Israel, or post-War on Terror America?

Except for the fact that the US military forces are increasingly turning to remote drone and robotic weapons as they try to mollify a clueless civilian population, the costs of permanent war keep rising year over year, and as Marcus Aurelius envisioned millennia ago, eventually the Empire collapses in bankruptcy! Today, if at least a few lemmings had some historical perspective, they might think before they allow themselves to go plunging over the cliff just because the rest of the mob are doing it! And that's where history becomes relevant/ and I'm sure also, why governing political and commercial forces don't want anyone to be aware of it....stick with your math and science and hope for a STEM career, and leave it alone in other words!

Quote:
Oh my, there is soooo much we can talk about when speaking of the rise and fall of civilizations, but I don't think anyone is prepared to do this. It is about a few people being in charge and personal (Trump and his chosen men), so everything is running on a code of honor, shifting to amoral bureaucratic order. The increase in people power, is also a decrease in individual power and the virtues promoted when rule is by a few nobles. If I am to support this argument I have a lot of research to do. My understanding of this is too vague at the moment, but perhaps a little better than common understanding because of the way "his story" is written. History being "his story", not "our story" and what happens when the bureaucratic shift is made. Of course, part of this is, what is needed for war, and who has the money (control of the land and the silver mine, etc.).

Oh, oh yes, Athens was a back water, make no difference spect on the earth until SILVER on the other side of the water and on the skirts of Persia territory.
Yes, I am also wary of every appeal to individualism I get from the media and thought leaders. Think of how much of the self-improvement advice promoted on Oprah's and other shows about subjects ranging from dietary and physical health issues to the dramatic rise in clinical depression and mental health problems are always treated as something that the individual and only the individual has the power to control. Whether it's self-help advice or the medical establishment out to promote new drugs, both standard and alternative medicine don't want you to talk about anything connected with societal disruptions that are at the root of these problems!

And that's just one specific area; when it comes to the radical individualism that began being promoted by the Euro-enlightenment philosophers three centuries ago, and the political and social movements their followers have spawned, the net effect has been a continual chipping away at social values and our communities!

And your "his story" reference also highlights the problem that, not only is history until recent times written by men, all of the political and economic power in every 'modern' nation of the past four to five thousand years has totally erased the wants and concerns of all the women of these societies!

On this continent, most of the settled, agricultural communities such as the Iroquoian Confederacy ( the nations we know the most about ) had specific male and female divisions of power in their societies; with the men given responsibility for hunting, managing hunting grounds (a subject of its own that went unnoticed and unrecorded by settlers) and provisioning the community, as well as the responsibility for protecting and engaging in war with neighboring tribal nations, and deciding if or when the community should break camp and look for a new place to call home/while the women of the community were in charge of virtually everything on the homefront, including planting and harvesting crops, organizing and controlling what went on in their longhouse homes...which were run by a Clan Mother. Medicine and most ceremonial and ritual observance was also run by the women of the community. And regarding warfare, the clan mothers had a veto power over the men who were elected war chiefs in cases where they did not agree to go to war, or wanted an existing war ended (this was how and why the originally 5 nation Haudenosanee (Iroquois) Confederacy was put together in the first place! The chiefs set up and agreed to the language of the treaty, but it came from an ultimatum given them by their respective clan mothers! Imagine if such a system existed in the Old World!

On a related note, this is part of the reason why indigenous first nations all over the world that have and are still being plundered by invading settler colonialists want their own histories taught and explored...and that included the ones that were preserved through memorization of oral histories.
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