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Old June 15th, 2014, 09:49 AM   #31
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No, an economic system by and for the people is one where people's needs are adequately met through the proper allocation of resources and production.

Don't mistake this for a system where a state tells you what to buy, how to think and who to associate with- that's not a benevolent system. A state in this case is a central organizer, a planner for a big project that everyone acknowledges is needed. For instance, we have massive transportation industry issues in America, and that boils down to a lot of factors. For the sake of argument, let's say we acknowledge that the private ownership of motor vehicles is expensive and inefficient. Perhaps a public transportation system that is sanitary, ecologically friendly, safe, and expansive can meet our needs better? Then the state helps organize a public program that is approved by the people for XX years at XX tax rate, so that the needs of people are met.

It's just a loose example of course.
And who is "everyone" that gets to decide what is "needed"?

What happens when 50.01% of the people decide something is "needed" but the resources and skills required to do it belong to the 49.99% that don't agree?
Bingo.
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Old June 15th, 2014, 09:52 AM   #32
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Really?

Where is government pushing non religion over religion?
covering up christian symbols in VA chapels

censoring religion out of world history and american history.

american public school teachers, more than once being caught banning students from reading bibles in school on their own time.
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Old June 15th, 2014, 10:19 AM   #33
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FTR one big problem is that what we currently call capitalism is far, far from free enterprise, the ideal system IMO. The big problem as I see it is that free enterprise will never be possible because of two factors. Greed/power lust and capital requirements of huge projects. Those two factors make cabals and monopolies not only inevitable, but sometimes necessary.

Thus we must compromise and reduce the freedom of the free enterprise with some government regulation, and thus the fucking crooked politicians make laws favorable to the fucking banks and large corporations because they are bought and paid for and on it goes.

Probably still better than any socialist system where the unproductive can steal the fruits of my efforts and where the deciders become way more equal than the rest of us.
Thanks from Tony and Sabcat
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Old June 15th, 2014, 10:52 AM   #34
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You also have to understand that capitalism is also a failure
Your definition of Capitalism is wrong. Capitalism is an economic system based on private ownership of capital. Is that what we have now? Or is private capital under the thumb of this government? Is it any wonder that private business is moving abroad and taking their money with them.
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Old June 15th, 2014, 02:16 PM   #35
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In a few hours two of the little pinkos went off in left field against my comments with nonsense and BS.
I really hate the commie cheerleaders who won't stop pushing for an evil system that has NEVER worked anywhere.

Get educated, sabcat and beasty.
I suggest y'all start with Plymouth and Jamestown as great lessons in both crony capitalism and socialism.
Yet I doubt either of you will bother and simply keep spouting your sick ideology and call me names for calling it "sick" and "evil".
Ignorant.

SUCKIT!!!


I was off golfing.

Do you know what you even are saying?


Enjoy your cake and diabetes and the loss of limbs.
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Old June 15th, 2014, 06:05 PM   #36
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SUCKIT!!!


I was off golfing.

Do you know what you even are saying?


Enjoy your cake and diabetes and the loss of limbs.
Yeah, that is what I thought you had.
NOTHING.
You have to be ignorant to support a system that has failed every time and place it has been forced on the people.
Otherwise you are one of those who expects to profit handsomely from the miserly of the people.
Oh, wait, there IS a third option.
Assclownery.
Lucky for you:

Second clue in the trail that leads to enlightenment from your intellectual superior, the infamous NowhereMan: the term "useful idiot". determine what it is and why it applies to you.
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Old June 15th, 2014, 06:10 PM   #37
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And who is "everyone" that gets to decide what is "needed"?

What happens when 50.01% of the people decide something is "needed" but the resources and skills required to do it belong to the 49.99% that don't agree?
You mean despite the fact that true democracy means some times you have to suck it up and do things you don't like because they help others? Or besides the fact that 50.01% to 49.99% is nearly an impossibility? You mean besides the fact that implementation of an idea can be plastic to the approval ratings of it, since these aren't black and white, yes or no issues?

Simple. In the long term, people will acknowledge that "private property" as we understand it today just isn't so clear cut. The resources and skill that 49% may "have" is likely dependent upon people in the 50%, and vise versa. Those who would tell you that you could own anything without that "ownership" being tied to at least another person within the economic system are talking out of their ass.
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Old June 15th, 2014, 06:11 PM   #38
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Yeah, that is what I thought you had.
NOTHING.
You have to be ignorant to support a system that has failed every time and place it has been forced on the people.
Otherwise you are one of those who expects to profit handsomely from the miserly of the people.
Oh, wait, there IS a third option.
Assclownery.
Lucky for you:

Second clue in the trail that leads to enlightenment from your intellectual superior, the infamous NowhereMan: the term "useful idiot". determine what it is and why it applies to you.

As in blinded by diabetes and a government that lies to you and pushes those sugars in your cake-eating face
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Old June 15th, 2014, 06:13 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by RNG View Post
FTR one big problem is that what we currently call capitalism is far, far from free enterprise, the ideal system IMO. The big problem as I see it is that free enterprise will never be possible because of two factors. Greed/power lust and capital requirements of huge projects. Those two factors make cabals and monopolies not only inevitable, but sometimes necessary.

Thus we must compromise and reduce the freedom of the free enterprise with some government regulation, and thus the fucking crooked politicians make laws favorable to the fucking banks and large corporations because they are bought and paid for and on it goes.

Probably still better than any socialist system where the unproductive can steal the fruits of my efforts and where the deciders become way more equal than the rest of us.

You are right what we have now is increasingly and in many sectors already is National Socialist economy.

Where Production, Distribution, wages are controlled more and more by a Centralized Government.
Thanks from caconservative
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Old June 15th, 2014, 06:28 PM   #40
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Here's the unaddressed problem: human nature.

One thing the Bible gets right, human beings do indeed have a tendency to "sin," i.e. do the wrong thing. Put some power into a human's hands, and the odds of him or her doing the wrong thing begin to escalate.

"Fix" human nature, and socialism would work, as would capitalism or communism. Education helps to "fix" human nature, but it's far from 100 percent effective, is a decades-long process, and as the news confirms repeatedly all it takes is a few bad apples to spoil the bushel.

The enemy of Liberty and Freedom isn't capitalism. It's the world banking cartel and its system of fractional banking which gives it total control over both business and government, and ultimately, people.
Human Nature is malable to it's enviornment. People hope to achieve extreme prosperity because it represents social status within the context of a consumerism. In an economic system where constant individual growth is required to sustain financial security, it's no wonder that the needs of others come second to our own selfish interests. The psychological change comes with a shift in enviornment, and human psyches are extremely palpable when viewed within the context of their societies- and a well educated, benevolent by nature society can and will breed well educated, benevolent people who hold the same standard to their fellow men.

Is it possible that someone with an unusual sense of greed comes along? It's not even possible, it's probable. But we also live in a society right now that condones murder, and yet it happens daily. I understand that there are exceptions, and that sometimes things don't always go as planned, but that's no reason to not try. I mean hell, would you consider the society we live in at the moment to be "going as planned"?

I don't suggest the enemy of freedom is Capitalism, I've never said such a thing ever. My argument is that the world we live in is rapidly changing, globalizing and shifting the meaning of productivity from "resource management" to "technological innovation", and I'm just trying to make the case that a system that intelligently manages human resources to center it on direct human productivity, instead of one that requires poverty for sustained growth, is something we need if we hope to continue to grow as a species in the coming centuries.

There have been many sociological, economic, and political ideologies in the past, each one dependent upon it's historical frame of reference, and I'm simply making the case that our frame of reference has been shifting over the last few decades at a rapid pace (something that I feel everyone here acknowledges), and that we've got to set up a socio-economic system that will service us best in that regard.
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