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Old June 15th, 2014, 10:05 PM   #51
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I don't know. There haven't been a lot of truly socialist states in our species history, and the relatively few that have haven't worked out as well as hoped.

Also, how come you reject the fact that you are economically dependent on everyone else around you? Are you sure that you can grow wealthy without a direct relationship to another within the economic ecosystem? If you are I would love to hear how to do so.
>>> There haven't been a lot of truly socialist states in our species history, and the relatively few that have haven't worked out as well as hoped.

Please name them...
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Old June 15th, 2014, 10:07 PM   #52
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Here's the unaddressed problem: human nature.

One thing the Bible gets right, human beings do indeed have a tendency to "sin," i.e. do the wrong thing. Put some power into a human's hands, and the odds of him or her doing the wrong thing begin to escalate.

"Fix" human nature, and socialism would work, as would capitalism or communism. Education helps to "fix" human nature, but it's far from 100 percent effective, is a decades-long process, and as the news confirms repeatedly all it takes is a few bad apples to spoil the bushel.

The enemy of Liberty and Freedom isn't capitalism. It's the world banking cartel and its system of fractional banking which gives it total control over both business and government, and ultimately, people.
"Here's the unaddressed problem: human nature."

is exactly akin to...

"Here's the unaddressed problem: wabi sabi."

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Old June 15th, 2014, 10:10 PM   #53
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You mean despite the fact that true democracy means some times you have to suck it up and do things you don't like because they help others? Or besides the fact that 50.01% to 49.99% is nearly an impossibility? You mean besides the fact that implementation of an idea can be plastic to the approval ratings of it, since these aren't black and white, yes or no issues?

Simple. In the long term, people will acknowledge that "private property" as we understand it today just isn't so clear cut. The resources and skill that 49% may "have" is likely dependent upon people in the 50%, and vise versa. Those who would tell you that you could own anything without that "ownership" being tied to at least another person within the economic system are talking out of their ass.
Shades of Absols and Great Caesar's Ghost...please feel free to consider me as extraordinarily thick...but...can you say that again...using different words???
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Old June 15th, 2014, 10:48 PM   #54
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...I really wish you would stop plagiarizing my thoughts...
I think what IT just said was "Power Corrupts, Absolute Power corrupts absolutely."
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Old June 16th, 2014, 08:09 AM   #55
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Human Nature is malable to it's enviornment. People hope to achieve extreme prosperity because it represents social status within the context of a consumerism. In an economic system where constant individual growth is required to sustain financial security, it's no wonder that the needs of others come second to our own selfish interests. The psychological change comes with a shift in enviornment, and human psyches are extremely palpable when viewed within the context of their societies- and a well educated, benevolent by nature society can and will breed well educated, benevolent people who hold the same standard to their fellow men.

Is it possible that someone with an unusual sense of greed comes along? It's not even possible, it's probable. But we also live in a society right now that condones murder, and yet it happens daily. I understand that there are exceptions, and that sometimes things don't always go as planned, but that's no reason to not try. I mean hell, would you consider the society we live in at the moment to be "going as planned"?

I don't suggest the enemy of freedom is Capitalism, I've never said such a thing ever. My argument is that the world we live in is rapidly changing, globalizing and shifting the meaning of productivity from "resource management" to "technological innovation", and I'm just trying to make the case that a system that intelligently manages human resources to center it on direct human productivity, instead of one that requires poverty for sustained growth, is something we need if we hope to continue to grow as a species in the coming centuries.

There have been many sociological, economic, and political ideologies in the past, each one dependent upon it's historical frame of reference, and I'm simply making the case that our frame of reference has been shifting over the last few decades at a rapid pace (something that I feel everyone here acknowledges), and that we've got to set up a socio-economic system that will service us best in that regard.
Those are good points, Beasty, but we still haven't dealt with the problem of human nature.

To wit: Who would be the enlightened ones to devise and then implement the new social and economic world systems ... and to be sure, to implement the new against the wishes and power of those who are vested in the old world system?

How would the implementers of the new world system be chosen?

Upon what power would they draw to neutralize those who want no part of their new world system?
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Old June 16th, 2014, 09:50 AM   #56
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Shades of Absols and Great Caesar's Ghost...please feel free to consider me as extraordinarily thick...but...can you say that again...using different words???
Essentially I was stating that Nwolfe had a faulty premise for a number of reasons.

1) 50.01% to 49.99% is an absurdly improbable occurance, one which would likely happen never. Acknowledging that it is hypothetical;

2) Within any democratic, fair means of of decision making, sometimes you loose out, and that's okay. You can't have everything your way 100% of the time, that's just silly. In any group setting, collaboration is key. If you loose out in a show-of-hands situation, simply pouting and refusing to go forward the plan everyone decided together because you didn't your way is so childish. That's not to say you have to like what's being done, but in a democratic system your expected to collaborate with everyone within reason whether you win, loose or tie.

3) Even so, who's to say there can't be compromise on both sides? Nothing is truly an all or nothing, black and white solution. If 90% of the group says yes and 10% say no, then it's within reason to assume that implementation might be a little bit different than say if 60% said yes and 40% said no.

4) The idea that, economically speaking, someone is completely financially independent of others is silly. What you "own" is likely dependent upon the actions of people who don't agree with you on any number of issues, so to say that "these are my resources, they aren't going to anything I don't approve of" not only doesn't work within a system where everyone is dependent upon each other, but it doesn't even exist right now.
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Old June 16th, 2014, 09:54 AM   #57
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>>> There haven't been a lot of truly socialist states in our species history, and the relatively few that have haven't worked out as well as hoped.

Please name them...
Is it really that obscure? I'm sure everyone can name at least three flailing socialism, past and present, right off the top of their head.

Were they started with good intentions? Who's to say? All I'm saying is the idea of Socialism is more than just Stalinism, it's more than the way it's been implemented in history. With a different approach, one that really hasn't been tried before, I think it can help.
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Old June 16th, 2014, 10:24 AM   #58
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Those are good points, Beasty, but we still haven't dealt with the problem of human nature.

To wit: Who would be the enlightened ones to devise and then implement the new social and economic world systems ... and to be sure, to implement the new against the wishes and power of those who are vested in the old world system?

How would the implementers of the new world system be chosen?

Upon what power would they draw to neutralize those who want no part of their new world system?
I have no idea who would be the ones to help promote such a change. That often is the case in such a change in society- people make themselves known in that regard through their actions and their intent. I'd like to think that I could help in that regard, because I genuinely have the best of intentions and I think I have the skill to help do so, but that is besides the point.

There would be no "neutralizing the opposition" or use of force to combat ideas. That is not my idea of bettering humanity, it is the anti-thesis to my argument, and it is why even people with the best intentions have failed in the past in this exact kind of situation. I will make my argument through my actions and my words. I would see to it a system that betters humanity without sacrificing people's wishes (because that would be a contradiction, wouldn't it?) is in place, let that grow and mature, and continue to advocate to the international audience benevolence towards other human beings and how we accomplish that. In time, I'd hope to see people, not necissarily signifying governments or citizenry, but people, come to give it a shot and see how much better it is when you foster altruism and humanism in every aspect of a society. There would be no bombings of deserts who disagree with us, there would be no suit and tie political games, keyword riddled speeches, deceit of the public for their supposed benefit, secret implementation of goals counter to the benefit of humanity, ect. A system like simply wouldn't allow it.

If they truly still want no part of it then all I can do is pray that someday they will change their minds.
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Old June 16th, 2014, 10:30 AM   #59
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I have no idea who would be the ones to help promote such a change. That often is the case in such a change in society- people make themselves known in that regard through their actions and their intent. I'd like to think that I could help in that regard, because I genuinely have the best of intentions and I think I have the skill to help do so, but that is besides the point.

There would be no "neutralizing the opposition" or use of force to combat ideas. That is not my idea of bettering humanity, it is the anti-thesis to my argument, and it is why even people with the best intentions have failed in the past in this exact kind of situation. I will make my argument through my actions and my words. I would see to it a system that betters humanity without sacrificing people's wishes (because that would be a contradiction, wouldn't it?) is in place, let that grow and mature, and continue to advocate to the international audience benevolence towards other human beings and how we accomplish that. In time, I'd hope to see people, not necissarily signifying governments or citizenry, but people, come to give it a shot and see how much better it is when you foster altruism and humanism in every aspect of a society. There would be no bombings of deserts who disagree with us, there would be no suit and tie political games, keyword riddled speeches, deceit of the public for their supposed benefit, secret implementation of goals counter to the benefit of humanity, ect. A system like simply wouldn't allow it.

If they truly still want no part of it then all I can do is pray that someday they will change their minds.
The problem with your position IMO is that you are taking a very optimistic view of your fellow man. You seem to feel that the vast majority of people would jump up and help contribute to this Utopian vision you have. As your experience level increases, I suspect you will become somewhat disillusioned and realize that a significant percentage of the population will play grasshopper to your ant. And the system crashes.
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Old June 16th, 2014, 10:57 AM   #60
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The problem with your position IMO is that you are taking a very optimistic view of your fellow man. You seem to feel that the vast majority of people would jump up and help contribute to this Utopian vision you have. As your experience level increases, I suspect you will become somewhat disillusioned and realize that a significant percentage of the population will play grasshopper to your ant. And the system crashes.
I don't expect the majority of people simply hear a couple speeches and hop up up in defense of the goal. I may be young, but I'm not naive, not by a long shot. I understand the decades of propaganda seeped into the minds of the general populace against me; I understand the centuries of an opposing socio-economic system hardwiring the human brain to drift away from the world I propose; I understand the general human desire not necissarily perfectly in sync with my sociological philosophy. But that doesn't mean I can just give up.

I come into these threads and get called a slew of pejoratives and derogatory terms, and in all reality I'd expect no different outside this place as well, but I can't just give up. Because underneath all my arguments on economic systems, faulty political premises, ideological debates, religious vitirol- underneath all of that is a desire to help people. I don't argue these points just because I view them to be my personal favorite, I'm not like that. I don't even have truly subjective opinions; I seldom if every form the basis for my "likes" and "dislikes" on that internal sense like most people do. Everything I have an opinion on, big or small, is based on a perceived notion of constructive-ness. Things that don't make a difference based on implementation are things I don't really have opinions on. If you ask me what my favorite color is, or what music I like better, or something like that, I couldn't tell you- or rather, I wouldn't know how to tell you, because what difference does it make? Blue or green, rock or rap- what's the point? It doesn't impact much of anything.

You see, I can't just stop, because I can never stop evaluating and assessing the world around me. It's easy for me to see problems, and when I do the solution is something lodged forever in my mind, to be reevaluated and readdressed a thousand times over based on the situation it's found in. But what use is that if I can't apply that to help people? I'm nothing if I can't do that. So I can't stop, because I care too much. I might die before ever seeing my solutions come to fruition, but that's all the more reason why I'll always keep pressing forward in that sense.

Last edited by Beasty; June 16th, 2014 at 11:03 AM.
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