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Old November 19th, 2015, 04:12 PM   #11
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Please explain.
Ownership of anything beyond your immediate grasp is a social construct.
You own your house, because of the registry of deeds.
People praise the fruit and curse the tree, wealth is a social construct and can be used for the benefit of society.
Taxes aren't theft, they are part and parcel of the game.
Without taxes, the money is worthless, real estate belongs to whoever has the muscle to kick the people off the land they want, and stocks and bonds are only traded with people you actually know.
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Old November 19th, 2015, 04:22 PM   #12
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Ownership of anything beyond your immediate grasp is a social construct.
You own your house, because of the registry of deeds.
People praise the fruit and curse the tree, wealth is a social construct and can be used for the benefit of society.
Right on. I see where your coming from. From this perspective would everything be accomplished through social engineering then?
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Old November 19th, 2015, 04:36 PM   #13
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Right on. I see where your coming from. From this perspective would everything be accomplished through social engineering then?
There is a social contract, we accept money, we accept laws, we pay taxes to make that work, laissez faire doesn't work, it's been tried, it fails spectacularly. That's why it doesn't exist, because it dies on it's own.

What works is a mix of government social engineering and markets.
A regulated market economy, regulated to keep it honest, and regulated because people and their welfare are more important than money.
One thing the government does extremely well is social insurance, it does a much better job than the market. So the basic pension, health care, disability, unemployment insurance are best handled by the government.
Cars, TVs, jeans and spaghetti squash are best produced by the market.

And taxes should be set to cover spending, and we are not spending enough on a whole lot of things right now, although there are things we are spending way too much on, we aren't anywhere near optimized government.
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Old November 19th, 2015, 04:41 PM   #14
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There is a social contract, we accept money, we accept laws, we pay taxes to make that work, laissez faire doesn't work, it's been tried, it fails spectacularly. That's why it doesn't exist, because it dies on it's own.

What works is a mix of government social engineering and markets.
A regulated market economy, regulated to keep it honest, and regulated because people and their welfare are more important than money.
One thing the government does extremely well is social insurance, it does a much better job than the market. So the basic pension, health care, disability, unemployment insurance are best handled by the government.
Cars, TVs, jeans and spaghetti squash are best produced by the market.

And taxes should be set to cover spending, and we are not spending enough on a whole lot of things right now, although there are things we are spending way too much on, we aren't anywhere near optimized government.

What about those who are opposed to a transition like that?

Do we split up the states?
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Old November 19th, 2015, 04:54 PM   #15
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There is a social contract, we accept money, we accept laws, we pay taxes to make that work, laissez faire doesn't work, it's been tried, it fails spectacularly. That's why it doesn't exist, because it dies on it's own.

What works is a mix of government social engineering and markets.
A regulated market economy, regulated to keep it honest, and regulated because people and their welfare are more important than money.
One thing the government does extremely well is social insurance, it does a much better job than the market. So the basic pension, health care, disability, unemployment insurance are best handled by the government.
Cars, TVs, jeans and spaghetti squash are best produced by the market.

And taxes should be set to cover spending, and we are not spending enough on a whole lot of things right now, although there are things we are spending way too much on, we aren't anywhere near optimized government.
A great summary. The problem is that there are all kinds of shades of grey involved here. How much regulation? How high taxes? And on and on.

There are very few like Sabcat, gord and cacon who (appear to) want zero governmental influence of these things.

Well, with cacon he still wants total control of your bedroom and women's bodies but that's another issue.
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Old November 19th, 2015, 04:56 PM   #16
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What about those who are opposed to a transition like that?

Do we split up the states?
Move to a country with laissez faire capitalism and no taxes....

Well, there is a place, Campione d'Italia, no taxes, no state, no federal, no local taxes.
The town expenses are paid for by the town owned casino, and by Italian law, the residents pay no taxes.
It's an Italian town in Switzerland, the town had a referendum on whether to be Swiss or Italian, Mussolini said if the town voted to be Italian, they would be exempt from Italian taxes.
So in this village of 3,000 people on a beautiful lake, you get Swiss Post Office, Swiss telephone, Swiss Hospitals, and no taxes.
Of course Americans living there are still responsible for US taxes.
Or you could become a citizen of Liechtenstein, I think it costs 10 million dollars, but then you'd live tax free, in Liechtenstein.


If we did split up the states, how long do you think the states where no one paid taxes would last?
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Old November 19th, 2015, 05:01 PM   #17
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Move to a country with laissez faire capitalism and no taxes....

Well, there is a place, Campione d'Italia, no taxes, no state, no federal, no local taxes.
The town expenses are paid for by the town owned casino, and by Italian law, the residents pay no taxes.
It's an Italian town in Switzerland, the town had a referendum on whether to be Swiss of Italian, Mussolini said if the town voted to be Italian, they would be exempt from Italian taxes.
So in this village of 3,000 people on a beautiful lake, you get Swiss Post Office, Swiss telephone, Swiss Hospitals, and no taxes.
Of course Americans living there are still responsible for US taxes.
Nope. I guess I'll just fight you guys then. The thing is we wouldn't stop you guys from forming a socialist community why do you want to force us to participate in your socialism? I guess that is the most part that gets me most of all.
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Old November 19th, 2015, 05:15 PM   #18
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Nope. I guess I'll just fight you guys then. The thing is we wouldn't stop you guys from forming a socialist community why do you want to force us to participate in your socialism? I guess that is the most part that gets me most of all.
You don't have to participate, just stay off the roads and don't use our economy, if you don't make money, you don't owe taxes.....fair?
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Old November 19th, 2015, 05:27 PM   #19
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You don't have to participate, just stay off the roads and don't use our economy, if you don't make money, you don't owe taxes.....fair?
Nope. Just cuz you guys think you can change the rules and some of the other sheeple will follow along because they don't understand mathematics that's fine. I pay for gas. I pay for my tabs. I will use the roads. I pay my property tax so I will use the fire department, police departments, parks and anything else that the city provides. I pay sales tax when I buy things for whatever the fuck that goes to. That doesn't really even piss me off. Income tax. Medicaid and social security are what piss me off but as soon as the income tax jumps like you guys want I will completely avoid that too. As of now 30% is fucked but manageable if it goes higher I will suddenly become "unemployed" and draw a check from the state. Easy-peazy
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Old November 19th, 2015, 05:38 PM   #20
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Nope. Just cuz you guys think you can change the rules and some of the other sheeple will follow along because they don't understand mathematics that's fine. I pay for gas. I pay for my tabs. I will use the roads. I pay my property tax so I will use the fire department, police departments, parks and anything else that the city provides. I pay sales tax when I buy things for whatever the fuck that goes to. That doesn't really even piss me off. Income tax. Medicaid and social security are what piss me off but as soon as the income tax jumps like you guys want I will completely avoid that too. As of now 30% is fucked but manageable if it goes higher I will suddenly become "unemployed" and draw a check from the state. Easy-peazy
How much fed money went into the roads? How much fed money is returned to the state for other purposes that therefore you don't have to pay for in state taxes.

And aside from that, why are fed taxes wrong but gas tax and property tax is OK? That seems very inconsistent to begin with.
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