Political Forums  

Go Back   Defending The Truth Political Forum > Political Forum > Political Ideologies > Socialism

Socialism Socialism Forum - Political Philosophy Forum


Thanks Tree269Thanks
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old December 13th, 2015, 03:41 PM   #81
Celebrating diversity
 
Sabcat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Earth
Posts: 20,056
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelT View Post
The two are different in the way they infect.
Ebola can only be contracted by direct contact with the bodily fluids of infected people who are showing clear signs of infection, while the Black Death could be contacted by airborne virus from people not showing any signs of infection
You mean like the nazis saying flat out lets execute a bunch of people where as the USSR killed just them thru social engineering?
Thanks from coke
Sabcat is offline  
Old December 13th, 2015, 03:42 PM   #82
Senior Member
 
ubertubered's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: South Carolina, USA
Posts: 306
Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
My Soviet-born wife just shook her head reading this. Communist Party membership was required for the better jobs, but the party bosses had the best jobs, had the very best healthcare, access to food items ordinary people and party members never saw, had private housing for free, access to fashionable clothing, and had cars. They were much, much better off than the ordinary folks who bore the brunt of all shortages, including toilet paper.

And here's the irony. The prices in the stores for party bosses were much cheaper than the "people's" stores, insult onto injury.
I never tried to hide the benefits granted to Soviet bureaucrats. Maybe saying only three or four times wealthier was understating it a bit though? At any rate, my point was only that you never saw anyone in the SU hoarding wealth to the same extent as under capitalism, even though it did happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
You must be unfamiliar with the Holodomor, 1932-33. No one knows how many Ukrainians were starved to death by Stalin. Estimates range from 2.5-7.5 million or more. It was a genocide. In 1937-38, Stalin's "Great Terror" claimed around 700,000 lives, some of the USSR's best minds and generals.
I am familiar. Stalin's regime saw millions of it's own citizens perish even before WWII under rapid industrialization and forced agricultural collectivization. Both of these things had to be done to increase output, but there's no question it went to far, big mistakes were made. The extreme methods led many factories to fake their output out of fear, farmers were some of the many victims of forced deportations. It was a mess. Perhaps casualties had to be taken to develop the state to the extent it needed to be prepared for war, but it seems beyond doubt that there was massive unnecessary loss.


Nothing I've written should give any sane person the impression that I idolize the SU. I don't have any interest in defending it beyond what it deserves. I just want to get to the truth buried under the piles of Cold War propaganda. What we need to keep in mind though is that the violent, authoritarian tendencies of the SU were the result of it's environment. The Bolsheviks committed the heinous crime of daring to live under a separate economic system as the rest of the world, and under enormous international pressure they were forced to undergo a Civil War, forced rapid development, the war against Germany, and then having the entire developed world turn on them afterwards. The Soviets were never for a moment allowed any normal, peaceful growth as a society. And people wonder why life was so often brutal? Ridiculous.


Quote:
Originally Posted by coke View Post
Do we have a new label? Another label change? Is Democratic Socialism out? Are we now using Social Democracy Socialism?
Don't be silly.

Social Democracy

Socialism

There. Get it now?
Thanks from coke
ubertubered is offline  
Old December 13th, 2015, 03:46 PM   #83
Banned
 
movingforward's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: United States
Posts: 259
Thanks from Sabcat and coke
movingforward is offline  
Old December 13th, 2015, 03:47 PM   #84
Banned
 
movingforward's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: United States
Posts: 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
No, this is exactly wrong.

The entire world is connected now. Everybody wants a piece of the pie, and why shouldn't they have it?

For decades, the US, 5 percent of the world's population and even less now, consumed 25 percent of the world's output of goods and services. That my friend is empire.

Folks on the right side often note that poor people in the US would be considered wealthy people in many parts of the world. They said it, but they don't hear what they are saying.

They also say that the key to more people enjoying "The American Dream" is to produce more by reducing regulations and turning the capitalist engine loose. Last week, in Beijing:



Quite simply, the planet cannot begin to support many more American Dream seekers. So something has to give.

If we had honest politicians, you would have already heard what I'm saying. But no, these whores keep talking about US citizens always having more than the previous generation.

During the Bush and Obama years, the American Dream hit reality. It's time to get real, but fantasies can be so hard to let go of.
Today, the tax code is a labyrinth littered with thousands of special-interest giveaways, subsidies and other breaks written to favor Washington insiders. At 80,000 pages, it’s a tax code only an army of tax accountants and lobbyists could love—because they’ve written it.

The code is rigged with multiple carve-outs for favored industries. It penalizes people for moving up the economic ladder. It gives tax deductions for borrowing costs, thereby encouraging companies to take on too much debt and raising concerns about financial fragility, rather than having them focus on real investment and hiring.

Low growth, crony capitalism and easy debt—that’s President Obama’s economic agenda in a nutshell, and the tax code has helped make it possible. It’s past time for a change.
Thanks from Sabcat and coke
movingforward is offline  
Old December 13th, 2015, 03:49 PM   #85
Banned
 
coke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: nunya
Posts: 12,580
Quote:
Originally Posted by movingforward View Post
ObamaCare is a government takeover of more than one-sixth of the American economy, and it epitomizes why Americans are so fed up with Washington. To win on repeal, conservatives must unite around a vision of health care for the future – one that enables transformational innovation.

We must:
1. Promote innovation
2. Lower costs
3. Return power to states

Health care costs grow faster than any other sector of the economy and innovation lags. Why? Washington over-regulation in health care creates high barriers to entry, adds excessive costs, fosters excessive complexity and impedes innovation.

We need to:
1. Modernize the Food and Drug Administration’s regulatory morass and increase funding and accountability at the National Institutes of Health

2. Promote private sector leadership of health information technology adoption and enable better access to patient de-identified Medicare and Medicaid claims data

3. Establish a comprehensive review of regulatory barriers to health innovation

Washington over-regulation in health care creates high barriers to entry, adds excessive costs, fosters excessive complexity and impedes innovation.

Until health care is oriented around consumers, providers and innovation, Americans will not get better value and results out of the health care system. In addition, coverage options must reflect a modern, 21st century workforce where workers frequently switch jobs or start new businesses and need the security of portable coverage.

It is critical to have a well-functioning individual market side-by-side with a strong employer-sponsored coverage market. The employer health insurance market represents a strong and innovative coverage platform for 154 million Americans. To improve coverage, we should:

- Provide a tax credit for the purchase of affordable, portable health plans that protect Americans from high-cost medical events
- Increase contribution limits and uses for Health Savings Accounts (HSAs) to help with out-of-pocket costs
- Facilitate transparency on costs and outcomes
- Cap the employer tax exclusion to lower insurance premiums
- Allow employers to use financial incentives to encourage wellness programs
- Enable small businesses to make tax-free contributions to their workers’ individual, portable health plans

States should have responsibility, freedom and accountability to make their individual insurance markets more competitive, enhance access to care and design solutions for vulnerable Americans. Instead of Washington standardization, this approach emphasizes transparent outcome standards. States will have streamlined, capped federal funding and be responsible for meeting transparent metrics to:

- Make their insurance markets more competitive. This will include enabling access to affordable, catastrophic plans in their states; a continuous coverage guarantee for individuals with pre-existing conditions; access to affordable care and improved health outcomes in their state; lower health care cost growth, including medical liability reform; and a transition plan for the 17 million individuals entangled in ObamaCare.

- Strengthen the health care safety net. To achieve this, states may use a number of strategies: individualized, community-based benefit designs; coordinated care for individuals with behavioral health conditions and the disabled; tailored care delivery to reflect the diversity of state populations; personalized care solutions for high-risk individuals with proven data analytics; work requirements for able-bodied individuals; premium assistance for individual and employer-provided coverage; and consolidated funding from various programs to better coordinate care.
I pretty much agree with all that. Tort reform would be good. Illinois is like the leader in sue your Doctor, and it has absolutely affected health care in the state. Across state line health insurance purchasing power is a no brainer.

Now for some things you wont agree with, well probably not.
I, think I can safely say, I am the only one on the right who agreed with some of the key core components of the ACA. I agree for instance that Health insurance should be available to everyone. I think it should be illegal to deny selling health insurance due to pre existing condition. I cant refuse to sell you something because your black. You should not be able to refuse to sell me something because of my health. Its that simple to me. I have no problem with the government exchange. I have no problem with subsidizing people on the government exchange.

What I do have a problem with is the mandates. They are wrong. I do not care if you just call them a tax, they are wrong. Yeah, I know, the way they are set up you have to be a real idiot to ever pay a penny in individual penalties, but its still wrong. Keeping people up to age 26 on parents insurance was the first hint that the ACA was destined to fail. On one hand, you claim the mandate is to keep the young and healthy on insurance to drive the premiums down. Great. The other hand you let people stay on family plan until they are 26. What the hell? Thats some real moron logic. Then there is the Cadillac plan tax. What the fuck is that all about? You are encouraging people to have less coverage? Really? Nuts. Although the Unions are raising hell about that, I suspect it will be a early casualty of the ACA fail. Also its obvious, companies will hire less full time and more part time due to the mandates. That is just captain obvious. Again, I have no problem with government ran employer exchanges. I have no problem with giving out tax cuts or incentives to employers to insure their employees. But, the mandate as it is, will slow growth. It is now. We all know it is. Instead of a carrot they just wanted to use the stick on business.
Thanks from movingforward
coke is offline  
Old December 13th, 2015, 05:20 PM   #86
Senior Member
 
imaginethat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Western Slope, Colorado
Posts: 53,214
Quote:
Originally Posted by ubertubered View Post
I never tried to hide the benefits granted to Soviet bureaucrats. Maybe saying only three or four times wealthier was understating it a bit though? At any rate, my point was only that you never saw anyone in the SU hoarding wealth to the same extent as under capitalism, even though it did happen.
The party bosses, who are today's Russian oligarchs, hoarded away wealth. Imperial Russia possessed vast wealth. It didn't disappear with the Bolshevik Revolution, though it did drop out of sight.

Quote:
I am familiar. Stalin's regime saw millions of it's own citizens perish even before WWII under rapid industrialization and forced agricultural collectivization. Both of these things had to be done to increase output, but there's no question it went to far, big mistakes were made. The extreme methods led many factories to fake their output out of fear, farmers were some of the many victims of forced deportations. It was a mess. Perhaps casualties had to be taken to develop the state to the extent it needed to be prepared for war, but it seems beyond doubt that there was massive unnecessary loss.
Rapid industrialization met with fits and starts of success, finally coming to a finely tuned machine after the start of WWII, but forced agricultural collectivization was an utter failure. The Holodomor was aimed specifically at Ukrainian farmers who consistently outproduced Russian farmers ... before collectivization.

As for preparing for war, Stalin's paranoia led him to kill or imprison all people of outstanding talent, including his best generals, who along with his best intelligence agents had warned him about trusting the nonaggression pact with Hitler. Stalin, who was paranoid of everyone, trusted Hitler and refused to believe Hitler was massing troops in Poland, which resulted in millions of dead Russians who faced the German guns from the front and Russian guns from behind. The Russian men were thrown into battle without socks.

Quote:
Nothing I've written should give any sane person the impression that I idolize the SU. I don't have any interest in defending it beyond what it deserves. I just want to get to the truth buried under the piles of Cold War propaganda. What we need to keep in mind though is that the violent, authoritarian tendencies of the SU were the result of it's environment. The Bolsheviks committed the heinous crime of daring to live under a separate economic system as the rest of the world, and under enormous international pressure they were forced to undergo a Civil War, forced rapid development, the war against Germany, and then having the entire developed world turn on them afterwards. The Soviets were never for a moment allowed any normal, peaceful growth as a society. And people wonder why life was so often brutal? Ridiculous.
What truth do you believe was buried in Cold War propaganda? How were the Bolsheviks forced into a Civil War? They were the revolution which turned into a civil war organically. Are you aware of the terrorism visited upon the smarter and more together Russians by proletariat mobs who stole, burned, murdered, and raped their way across Russia, utterly lawless, answering to no one but emboldened by the glorious Revolution?

Life in early 20th century Tsarist Russia was pretty good. Lenin and his revolutionaries appealed to the lowest common denominator, the ne'er do wells. Being exceptional in any way put a person at odds with the central planners.

The Soviets never for a moment proffered any normal, peaceful growth as a society. The communist system turned the best, the smartest, the hardest working men into alcoholics. No matter how hard Igor worked, his salary was the same as Sergei's. No matter how hard he worked, he could do no better for his family. That pain was dulled somewhat by alcoholism.
Thanks from Sabcat and coke
imaginethat is offline  
Old December 13th, 2015, 05:31 PM   #87
Celebrating diversity
 
Sabcat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Earth
Posts: 20,056
^^^^^^^^
That!!!!
---------

Thanks Again IT!
Thanks from coke
Sabcat is offline  
Old December 13th, 2015, 05:39 PM   #88
Senior Member
 
imaginethat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Western Slope, Colorado
Posts: 53,214
Quote:
Originally Posted by movingforward View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
No, this is exactly wrong.

The entire world is connected now. Everybody wants a piece of the pie, and why shouldn't they have it?

For decades, the US, 5 percent of the world's population and even less now, consumed 25 percent of the world's output of goods and services. That my friend is empire.

Folks on the right side often note that poor people in the US would be considered wealthy people in many parts of the world. They said it, but they don't hear what they are saying.

They also say that the key to more people enjoying "The American Dream" is to produce more by reducing regulations and turning the capitalist engine loose. Last week, in Beijing:



Quite simply, the planet cannot begin to support many more American Dream seekers. So something has to give.

If we had honest politicians, you would have already heard what I'm saying. But no, these whores keep talking about US citizens always having more than the previous generation.

During the Bush and Obama years, the American Dream hit reality. It's time to get real, but fantasies can be so hard to let go of.
Today, the tax code is a labyrinth littered with thousands of special-interest giveaways, subsidies and other breaks written to favor Washington insiders. At 80,000 pages, it’s a tax code only an army of tax accountants and lobbyists could love—because they’ve written it.

The code is rigged with multiple carve-outs for favored industries. It penalizes people for moving up the economic ladder. It gives tax deductions for borrowing costs, thereby encouraging companies to take on too much debt and raising concerns about financial fragility, rather than having them focus on real investment and hiring.

Low growth, crony capitalism and easy debt—that’s President Obama’s economic agenda in a nutshell, and the tax code has helped make it possible. It’s past time for a change.
I agree with some of what you said above, but it doesn't at all address the points I raised.

Your pinning the realities a changing world on Obama is almost funny. Almost. The US of 2015 certainly isn't the US of the 50s or 60s, the pre-deficit spending US, nor is it the US of the 80s, 90s, and 2000s, when deficit spending was used to hide from the people the reality that the levels of consumption necessary to continue The American Dream were unsustainable.

Why do you think we have military bases in 130 countries or so? It is called empire.

So few of our politicians tell the truth, that Americans need to turn it down a notch or two, and one of the best ways to "grow" our economy is to quit spending so much on national offense.
Thanks from Sabcat and coke
imaginethat is offline  
Old December 13th, 2015, 05:49 PM   #89
Celebrating diversity
 
Sabcat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Earth
Posts: 20,056
Dr Paul

A message for the future from the past
Thanks from imaginethat and coke
Sabcat is offline  
Old December 13th, 2015, 05:50 PM   #90
Senior Member
 
imaginethat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Western Slope, Colorado
Posts: 53,214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabcat View Post
^^^^^^^^
That!!!!
---------

Thanks Again IT!


Marrying a Russian-born Ukrainian lady drove me to study and understand Russian history, and in fact, the differences between Russians and Ukrainians.

Ukrainians have always felt the pain of Russian jealousy and paranoia.
Thanks from Sabcat and coke
imaginethat is offline  
Reply

  Defending The Truth Political Forum > Political Forum > Political Ideologies > Socialism

Tags
nazis, socialists



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Why do socialists hate the environment? Sabcat Current Events 37 October 16th, 2015 02:45 PM
For all you socialists out there..with love coke Current Events 0 November 18th, 2014 08:45 PM
Bad week coming for the socialists coke Current Events 28 November 3rd, 2014 04:43 AM
Teabaggers = Closeted-Socialists! Medicine Man Current Events 0 October 11th, 2014 07:28 AM
Shhh this isnt pc enough for the always caring socialists coke Current Events 2 August 26th, 2014 06:13 AM


Facebook Twitter RSS Feed



Copyright © 2005-2013 Defending The Truth. All rights reserved.