Political Forums  

Go Back   Defending The Truth Political Forum > Political Forum > Political Ideologies > Socialism

Socialism Socialism Forum - Political Philosophy Forum


Thanks Tree73Thanks
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old April 1st, 2016, 09:30 AM   #1
Banned
 
coke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: nunya
Posts: 12,580
Democratic Socialism Lies

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XgdtHewGR0

Enjoy
coke is offline  
Old April 8th, 2016, 03:42 PM   #2
Senior Member
 
ubertubered's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: South Carolina, USA
Posts: 306
His argument at 8:50 wasn't exactly a strong point of the video. The DSA pretty explicitly spelled out their program and it flew right over his head.
Thanks from coke
ubertubered is offline  
Old April 8th, 2016, 11:28 PM   #3
Banned
 
coke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: nunya
Posts: 12,580
Quote:
Originally Posted by ubertubered View Post
His argument at 8:50 wasn't exactly a strong point of the video. The DSA pretty explicitly spelled out their program and it flew right over his head.
They believe that all business should be controlled by the workers. No one built that. He like me calls bullshit to that notion. I think him like me both understands what democratic socialism stands for. It stands for mob rule in the economy. You own a business. You took the chance, you built it up, you put your name your finances your work on the line. Then along comes the democrat socialists to say, hey you didnt build that, now you will do what your employees tell you to do. Fuck that.
Thanks from webguy4, Pilgrim and Jimgorn
coke is offline  
Old April 9th, 2016, 05:29 AM   #4
Senior Member
 
Clara007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Arizona
Posts: 6,387
Quote:
Originally Posted by coke View Post


A couple of points. First, really smart young man--articulate, succinct and obviously passionate about his subject. Waaay too many juvenile video bytes.
Secondly, this young man has made the same mistake most conservatives make. He has neglected to connect the dots between America's national security and protecting our citizens. If his/your argument is based on the ONE THING our government MUST do (protect) then some socialistic policies must be in place. Examples:
*Healthcare. If we do not provide healthcare, if we do not vaccinate/research/care for every American, we cannot provide adequate national security. Our military and law enforcement must be strong, healthy, and fit in order to protect us.
*Education. If our military can't read, write, add, subtract, reason and problem solve---they can't protect us.
*Opportunity. If we can't provide equal opportunities in employment, income, housing, and higher education we can't expect Americans to feel a loyalty--to join the military--to have the patriotism, the allegiance to lead us.
*Standard of living. We can't expect a strong nation, ready to fend off attacks and shield us from harm if a majority of our nation can't feed or house their children. Our nation must feel security at HOME.
Martin Luther King said: ‘This country has socialism for the rich, and rugged individualism for the poor.’
Until everyone in this country is healthy, educated, housed and fed we cannot insure our own security and IF national security is the BE all and END all of government then we've got our work cut out for us.
Thanks from imaginethat and coke
Clara007 is offline  
Old April 9th, 2016, 09:34 AM   #5
Senior Member
 
ubertubered's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: South Carolina, USA
Posts: 306
Quote:
Originally Posted by coke View Post
They believe that all business should be controlled by the workers. No one built that. He like me calls bullshit to that notion. I think him like me both understands what democratic socialism stands for.
Yeah but the point is they explicitly spelled out their advocacy for an economic model similar to Alec Nove's in his text on socialism with democratic publicly-owned enterprises controlling the commanding heights of the economy with a cooperative sector for smaller firms. This is obviously quite different from a Soviet command economy that he equated it with. Not that I'm defending the DSA of America though, they're socialists (questionable) while being explicitly anti-communist which demonstrates an ignorance of theory and the pitiful weakness of the modern left.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coke View Post
It stands for mob rule in the economy. You own a business. You took the chance, you built it up, you put your name your finances your work on the line. Then along comes the democrat socialists to say, hey you didnt build that, now you will do what your employees tell you to do. Fuck that.
If you want to argue in favor of private enterprise though that's another thing entirely. For one, it's worth noting that turbo-liberals (somewhat comically known as conservatives and libertarians in the US) have never been able to fully reconcile their deification of business elites alongside their half-hearted critiques of cronyism. Capitalism is 'the extraordinary belief that the nastiest of men for the nastiest of motives will somehow work for the benefit of all.' Yet in spite of the knowledge that positions of power naturally attract mentally damaged people a notable portion of our population still displays stockholm syndrome towards them. The simple fact is that any of those elites would engage in bribery to increase their rate of profit, capitalists despise the free market more than socialists yet conservatives place most of the criticisms on the latter. You can argue that wage-labor and market exchange is the most efficient way to run an economy if you wish but please don't engage in hero-worship for people who spend all day coming up with new schemes to steal from you.
Thanks from coke
ubertubered is offline  
Old April 9th, 2016, 12:09 PM   #6
Banned
 
coke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: nunya
Posts: 12,580
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clara007 View Post
A couple of points. First, really smart young man--articulate, succinct and obviously passionate about his subject. Waaay too many juvenile video bytes.
Secondly, this young man has made the same mistake most conservatives make. He has neglected to connect the dots between America's national security and protecting our citizens. If his/your argument is based on the ONE THING our government MUST do (protect) then some socialistic policies must be in place. Examples:
*Healthcare. If we do not provide healthcare, if we do not vaccinate/research/care for every American, we cannot provide adequate national security. Our military and law enforcement must be strong, healthy, and fit in order to protect us.
*Education. If our military can't read, write, add, subtract, reason and problem solve---they can't protect us.
*Opportunity. If we can't provide equal opportunities in employment, income, housing, and higher education we can't expect Americans to feel a loyalty--to join the military--to have the patriotism, the allegiance to lead us.
*Standard of living. We can't expect a strong nation, ready to fend off attacks and shield us from harm if a majority of our nation can't feed or house their children. Our nation must feel security at HOME.
Martin Luther King said: ‘This country has socialism for the rich, and rugged individualism for the poor.’
Until everyone in this country is healthy, educated, housed and fed we cannot insure our own security and IF national security is the BE all and END all of government then we've got our work cut out for us.
Editorial piece devoid of a single fact. Furthermore you come up with all of this as if "socialism" is the only thing that can accomplish this. Either your really delusional or you worship at the alter of daily kos. You basically say ANYTHING the government does is socialism. Of course you have to redefine socialism for that to work. Not that there has not been a tremendous amount of that going on.
Thanks from Jimgorn
coke is offline  
Old April 9th, 2016, 12:12 PM   #7
Banned
 
coke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: nunya
Posts: 12,580
Quote:
Originally Posted by ubertubered View Post
Yeah but the point is they explicitly spelled out their advocacy for an economic model similar to Alec Nove's in his text on socialism with democratic publicly-owned enterprises controlling the commanding heights of the economy with a cooperative sector for smaller firms. This is obviously quite different from a Soviet command economy that he equated it with. Not that I'm defending the DSA of America though, they're socialists (questionable) while being explicitly anti-communist which demonstrates an ignorance of theory and the pitiful weakness of the modern left.



If you want to argue in favor of private enterprise though that's another thing entirely. For one, it's worth noting that turbo-liberals (somewhat comically known as conservatives and libertarians in the US) have never been able to fully reconcile their deification of business elites alongside their half-hearted critiques of cronyism. Capitalism is 'the extraordinary belief that the nastiest of men for the nastiest of motives will somehow work for the benefit of all.' Yet in spite of the knowledge that positions of power naturally attract mentally damaged people a notable portion of our population still displays stockholm syndrome towards them. The simple fact is that any of those elites would engage in bribery to increase their rate of profit, capitalists despise the free market more than socialists yet conservatives place most of the criticisms on the latter. You can argue that wage-labor and market exchange is the most efficient way to run an economy if you wish but please don't engage in hero-worship for people who spend all day coming up with new schemes to steal from you.
In short you said what I said in regards to DSA stance. You then told me what I can argue and how I can argue. Let me sum up your entire editorial that is totally void of anything factual.

Thanks from Sabcat
coke is offline  
Old April 9th, 2016, 01:45 PM   #8
Senior Member
 
Clara007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Arizona
Posts: 6,387
Quote:
Originally Posted by coke View Post
Editorial piece devoid of a single fact. Furthermore you come up with all of this as if "socialism" is the only thing that can accomplish this. Either your really delusional or you worship at the alter of daily kos. You basically say ANYTHING the government does is socialism. Of course you have to redefine socialism for that to work. Not that there has not been a tremendous amount of that going on.

You seem to think that everything is an editorial, but if by editorial you mean MY OPINION---then yes--which would mean that most of our DTT posts are editorials, except that even when I post the current tax brackets you deny them as facts. So I'm pretty confused right now.
Now maybe I misunderstood the video you posted but it seemed to me that the young man's point was that the government shouldn't offer up much/any altruism to 'we the people'. Video guy actually poses the question 'what is the legitimate role of government'. The answer according to video guy is that the government's only legitimate role is to insure the safety of the people and provide the rules which will secure the safety of the people.
I'm saying: NO. I don't agree. The government needs provide more than just safety because without health, education, and opportunity we are powerless to protect ourselves....to help ourselves.
"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States;"
Thanks from coke
Clara007 is offline  
Old April 9th, 2016, 01:51 PM   #9
Banned
 
coke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: nunya
Posts: 12,580
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clara007 View Post
You seem to think that everything is an editorial, but if by editorial you mean MY OPINION---then yes--which would mean that most of our DTT posts are editorials, except that even when I post the current tax brackets you deny them as facts. So I'm pretty confused right now.
Now maybe I misunderstood the video you posted but it seemed to me that the young man's point was that the government shouldn't offer up much/any altruism to 'we the people'. Video guy actually poses the question 'what is the legitimate role of government'. The answer according to video guy is that the government's only legitimate role is to insure the safety of the people and provide the rules which will secure the safety of the people.
I'm saying: NO. I don't agree. The government needs provide more than just safety because without health, education, and opportunity we are powerless to protect ourselves....to help ourselves.
"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States;"
How did the USA not go extinct then? How is anyone still alive in Somalia? Your definition of general welfare and mine is two different things. Ok, difference of opinion. Great got it.

About your progressive tax income tables. They were great. Love them. They did not explain how they would bring in more than flat tax though. By the way bubba did do the math. I was impressed with bubba.
Thanks from Sabcat
coke is offline  
Old April 9th, 2016, 02:02 PM   #10
Senior Member
 
ubertubered's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: South Carolina, USA
Posts: 306
Quote:
Originally Posted by coke View Post
In short you said what I said in regards to DSA stance. You then told me what I can argue and how I can argue. Let me sum up your entire editorial that is totally void of anything factual.
Is my very appearance in a thread enough to get you foaming at the mouth? You say I told you how to argue, and while not strictly untrue that's certainly a bizarre way of wording the fact that I criticized your argument regarding the righteousness of private enterprise. At any rate, as much as I enjoy these little confrontations I think it's obvious this is going to be a boring thread so I'll save it for later.
Thanks from coke
ubertubered is offline  
Reply

  Defending The Truth Political Forum > Political Forum > Political Ideologies > Socialism

Tags
democratic, lies, socialism



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What is socialism? Sabcat Socialism 71 October 5th, 2015 05:50 PM
Here's a look at Socialism roastpork Socialism 70 August 11th, 2015 05:20 PM
Radical Austerity’s Brutal Lies: Krugman, Chomsky seeing Through Neoliberal Lies LongWinded Current Events 12 July 14th, 2015 10:06 AM
More Right Winger Lies: Ted Cruz: Democratic Senators Want to ‘Repeal the First Amend tristanrobin Politicians 13 May 26th, 2014 02:39 PM
Plain Lies and War Lies alias Warfare 4 September 2nd, 2006 10:52 AM


Facebook Twitter RSS Feed



Copyright © 2005-2013 Defending The Truth. All rights reserved.