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Old May 22nd, 2016, 06:25 PM   #31
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The thieves and killers hide will, as your pic shows.
we left them in DC
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Old February 18th, 2018, 10:30 AM   #32
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CARACAS, Venezuela - Firmly in power and his revolution now in overdrive, President Hugo Chávez is moving fast to transform Venezuela's economy by bucking free-market .......
........
If this thread is about 21st century socialism, then it is about the direction socialism is taking today. Raising Venezuela as THE case for "socialism" in worse than inadequate; it is fraudulent. Condemning socialism for the failure of the chosen strategy for application of Marxism is like condemning Boeing for 9/11.

But I'm sure that to get past this issue I need to first address a bit about Venezuela.

Venezuela has been the subject of intense anti-socialist action by the U.S. for a long time. The US is trying very, very hard with the most corrupt, secret, underhanded campaign to end socialism everywhere and Venezuela has been one of the most serious threats to US capitalism for a long time. Research into the investigations by American lawyer Eva Golinger and also by Mark Weisbrot of the Center for Economic and Policy Research will explain this.

If you are skeptical think back to the lies we were told about Vietnam and the need to stop communism there "or we will be fighting them here in the US". Bunk. There was no such threat even though the Vietnamese communists ultimately won that war.

Think about the similar things we were told about Cuba. Bunk.

Back to the subject.

Here are the things that need to be clarified and the truth about them spread if we are to educate the people on socialism, because we here in the U.S. have also been the subject of intense anti-communist, anti-Marxist, anti-socialist propaganda for about 80 years and that is basically all the public knows about the subject: the propaganda.

BTW, I find it very interesting that while this forum presents itself as a place to discuss socialism, it seems the vast majority of posts are anti-socialist propaganda. So let's debunk the propaganda.

First, socialism is in its developmental stage just as capitalism was for about 100 years. So pointing to failures doesn't prove socialism can't work. It can only prove that it hasn't worked yet.

Secondly, while there have been many efforts to establish a socialist economy and society in many countries, since all failed before a finished, stable, functioning socialist economy was ever established means there have been no socialist countries, ever, anywhere. There have been efforts but that is all, including Venezuela that continues to struggle to succeed against the power of US propaganda, funding of subversives, and killing of figureheads.

And communism? By definition communism cannot be imposed on a society. It hasn't even been attempted. But many attempts at establishing socialism have been orchestrated by political parties with the word "Communist" in their name. Nothing more.

So the question is what Marxists have learned about the history of the effort to establish socialism, and how has their strategy changed in light of the failures of former strategies. And there has, indeed, been much learned and new strategies developed.

Once these things are clarified we can get down to the question of what's to be done.

Please refrain from bumper-sticker and mindless propaganda. It only serves to soothe the feelings of those who feel threatened by the conversation and want to suppress it. Let's make this a serious discussion of discovery in the course of defending the truth about 21st century socialism.
Thanks from RNG and the Beast

Last edited by Kode; February 18th, 2018 at 10:37 AM.
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Old February 20th, 2018, 01:08 PM   #33
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Full Definition of socialism
1
: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2
a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3
: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done


Socialism | Definition of Socialism by Merriam-Webster


ok
Sabcat, all capitalist dictionaries "define" socialism in terms that only reflect what we have seen, historically, and expressed in terms that are "acceptable" to capitalism.

Socialism is still in its developmental stage and so it is evolving. Hence, dictionary definitions are almost all incorrect.

The efforts of the past all led to government in control and trying to establish a socialist economy, and most of them have failed.

If we want to know what socialism is and how to define it, we have to look to what Marx said about it.

Marx said that socialism would be workers in control of the means of production. Is that what has happened under those governments? Or has the government been in control?

Marx said that the working class would cast off the chains of oppression by taking over the means of production and owning and running it. Is that what has happened?

Marx said the economy is the foundation of any system and the political system (along with everything else) springs from that foundation and rises in service to the economic base.

But when the government is seized by force or by vote, and then sets about to create a socialist economy, it is backward since it is a claim that the foundation is the political system and the economy rises from it.

So since we have never seen a country in which the working class owns and runs production, we have never seen a socialist economy and seizing state power cannot lead to it.

What's needed is to create the economy first, much as it was done in the beginning of capitalism in the 1500s. And that is beginning to happen today, and it is developing quite fast due to the obvious need.

More and more, workers are taking ownership of businesses and forming co-ops in which workers are in control.

Some of the characteristics:

1. Workers' Self Directed Enterprises (WSDEs) are corporations in which only member-workers may own shares of stock, one share per worker.

2. Shares may not be sold on the public market. They can only be bought from, and sold to, the co-op.

3. Workers hire and fire the CEO and the Board of Directors.

4. Workers must comprise half of the Board members.

5. Workers determine the pay scale. The Mondragon Cooperative Corporation, for example, requires that the highest-paid executive be paid no more than 8 times what the lowest paid worker is paid.

6. Workers decide what to produce, how to produce it, where to produce it, and what is to be done with the profits.

For WSDEs, layoffs of member workers during economic downturns are almost non-existent. And a Rutgers University study found that WSDEs are on average 4% more productive than their capitalist equivalent corporations, and 14% more profitable.

This approach is proving to be enormously advantageous in many ways.
Thanks from imaginethat

Last edited by Kode; February 20th, 2018 at 01:16 PM.
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Old March 15th, 2018, 03:16 AM   #34
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Socialism are democracy!
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Old March 15th, 2018, 03:37 AM   #35
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Russia too.

But RNG is communist with rules.
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Old March 15th, 2018, 07:09 PM   #36
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huh?
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Old March 15th, 2018, 08:39 PM   #37
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If this thread is about 21st century socialism, then it is about the direction socialism is taking today. Raising Venezuela as THE case for "socialism" in worse than inadequate; it is fraudulent. Condemning socialism for the failure of the chosen strategy for application of Marxism is like condemning Boeing for 9/11.

But I'm sure that to get past this issue I need to first address a bit about Venezuela.

Venezuela has been the subject of intense anti-socialist action by the U.S. for a long time. The US is trying very, very hard with the most corrupt, secret, underhanded campaign to end socialism everywhere and Venezuela has been one of the most serious threats to US capitalism for a long time. Research into the investigations by American lawyer Eva Golinger and also by Mark Weisbrot of the Center for Economic and Policy Research will explain this.

If you are skeptical think back to the lies we were told about Vietnam and the need to stop communism there "or we will be fighting them here in the US". Bunk. There was no such threat even though the Vietnamese communists ultimately won that war.

Think about the similar things we were told about Cuba. Bunk.

Back to the subject.

Here are the things that need to be clarified and the truth about them spread if we are to educate the people on socialism, because we here in the U.S. have also been the subject of intense anti-communist, anti-Marxist, anti-socialist propaganda for about 80 years and that is basically all the public knows about the subject: the propaganda.

BTW, I find it very interesting that while this forum presents itself as a place to discuss socialism, it seems the vast majority of posts are anti-socialist propaganda. So let's debunk the propaganda.

First, socialism is in its developmental stage just as capitalism was for about 100 years. So pointing to failures doesn't prove socialism can't work. It can only prove that it hasn't worked yet.

Secondly, while there have been many efforts to establish a socialist economy and society in many countries, since all failed before a finished, stable, functioning socialist economy was ever established means there have been no socialist countries, ever, anywhere. There have been efforts but that is all, including Venezuela that continues to struggle to succeed against the power of US propaganda, funding of subversives, and killing of figureheads.

And communism? By definition communism cannot be imposed on a society. It hasn't even been attempted. But many attempts at establishing socialism have been orchestrated by political parties with the word "Communist" in their name. Nothing more.

So the question is what Marxists have learned about the history of the effort to establish socialism, and how has their strategy changed in light of the failures of former strategies. And there has, indeed, been much learned and new strategies developed.

Once these things are clarified we can get down to the question of what's to be done.

Please refrain from bumper-sticker and mindless propaganda. It only serves to soothe the feelings of those who feel threatened by the conversation and want to suppress it. Let's make this a serious discussion of discovery in the course of defending the truth about 21st century socialism.
In what countries has true-socialism worked?
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Old March 15th, 2018, 09:59 PM   #38
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In what countries has true-socialism worked?
Russia, Finland, Spain, Netherlands in the knowledge.
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Old March 15th, 2018, 10:04 PM   #39
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Communists are four in this earth place but Socialist are difference between Communism even Socialism rich money talks in Socialism society.

Edit. Socialism are better working systems than communism.

Last edited by the Beast; March 15th, 2018 at 10:36 PM. Reason: Treaten
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Old March 16th, 2018, 02:45 AM   #40
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Hi I am a strong leftist who believes in Socialism now! Using Venezuela as a reason Socialism is wrong is not correct because of reasons an stuff
Socialist are Lefty but also a message too Right-Wing follow the infract but I like Socialism as strong European strukture its infacts on really time.
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