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Old February 21st, 2018, 02:59 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Kode View Post
No, absolutely no compulsion. Freedom of choice.

According to Marx socialism would be the next economic system to follow capitalism. Grasp the Marxian logic and sequence (ALL of the following is indispensable for any answer to your question. Please read ALL of it.): The slave society gave rise to an exploited laboring class that tended to growing crops mostly (I'm not referring to the U.S. slavery system). Those exploited laborers eventually found a way to raise crops for themselves as their own bosses. Over time, the feudal society developed with more advanced agricultural methods as it gave rise to a population of exploited serf class and a system that was able to feed the population to a large extent.

Eventually, as farming became capable of producing enough food, those exploited serfs began to be assigned jobs manually producing things. There were blacksmiths, wheelwrights, shoemakers, silversmiths, carpenters, etc, etc. And as time passed, those still-exploited serfs sometimes ran away to the city. Often the landlords would send their armies out in search of the runaways and bring them back to fulfill their sworn oath to serve the landlord. But many operated small businesses in the cities, avoided capture, and formed guilds and manufactories. Capitalism was born, created again by the exploited serf class of the former economy.

Capitalism developed and in its turn produced a population of another exploited class, -the modern working class. And according to Marx, this exploited class, too, will one day break away from capitalism and become their own bosses in the system that has come to be called "socialism".

Socialism does not create a new exploited class, so socialism is the end of all historic exploitation.

Now, communism. ... According to Marx, socialism will persist for a long time as it works out all problems associated with the working class smoothly running the economy and society. (According to Marx, the economy is the foundation from which everything else springs in service to the economy, including politics, the political structure, the culture, laws, education, etc.) And as the running of socialism smoothes out and becomes ingrained in the culture and the people, lingering capitalist-roader hopefuls will give up and the whole of society will operate with less and less oversight and management by state agencies. The state machine will "wither away" in Marx's terms. Eventually all that will be left is a "skeleton" of clerical functions, like record-keeping and some services. The capitalist class will be gone entirely and so classless society will be what remains.... classless, stateless society. This he called "communism" which he considered to be a return to ancient societies that were represented by tribal, hunter-gatherer societies, but of course far more advanced.

Now, since communist society "eventuates" from the "withering away of the state" and the classes naturally vanish of "neglect", two very interesting things should be very apparent to you:
1. socialism will last a very, very long time, -possibly many, many generations. And...
2. communist society cannot be imposed on a country, since it gradually and naturally evolves.

Does that answer your questions?


First, i have read and understand Marx. So you can save yourself time if you want and not do long recaps of his theories.

As long as it is not compulsory i take no issue, in fact i would applaud that approach to socialism. I believe that if we remove the federal governments rule over our day to day lives an autonomous socialist society would organically emerge and flourish. This socialist society could live right next to a christian compound and an anarcho capitalist township. Or in reality whatever "economic system" you could dream up.

Different people have different wants and needs from society and would naturally gravitate where they most felt "at home"

I would recommend you look into Mises and his works regarding socialism or even rothbard as he is an easier read. (That is not a shot at some presumption on your reading ability, just that Mises is very, very dry) there are also some lectures on the subject.
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Old February 21st, 2018, 03:05 PM   #12
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PLEASE DON'T reply within quotes! It makes it very hard to respond clearly.

First, regarding the above. A Rutgers University study found that WSDEs on average are 4% more productive and 14% more profitable than their traditional capitalist counterpart. So the source of funding is profits of successful WSDEs. The Mondragon Cooperative Corporation is 60 years old, has about 80,000 workers, is the 7th largest corporation in Spain, operates in 4 countries, has their own University and their own bank.

The normal way capitalist businesses of any size form is by borrowing from banks. WSDEs need legislation to facilitate such loans for them because traditional banks don't know how to structure a loan so that they have one name of one person who is ultimately responsible for paying back the loan, or they don't care to try a new approach to solve it. So it can be very difficult for a WSDE to obtain a loan from a typical bank.

So 6 states at last count have passed legislation to solve all such problems for WSDEs, and they are MA, RI, NY, NC, TX, AND CA. Meanwhile two senators and a representative have submitted such legislation for federal passage. In the senate it's S.1062 and in the House it's HR2357.

So your claim of the left forgetting that revenue isn't infinite is empty and nonsensical at best.
I don't see how the Spanish worker owned company and the state laws tie in with the revenue statement in any way.

I do not accept your claim that those states have "solved" these problems.

And I will study the Mondragon Cooperative Corporation to see what I think.

BTW, please link to claimed studies such as the Rutgers one again so I could check.
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Old February 21st, 2018, 03:44 PM   #13
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I don't see how the Spanish worker owned company and the state laws tie in with the revenue statement in any way.
You're worried about the government supporting this with taxpayer dollars, right? Mondragon allocated a portion of profits to form a bank that lends money to other WSDE start-ups. The state laws establish government funds for lending loans to WSDE start-ups.



Quote:
I do not accept your claim that those states have "solved" these problems.
What does the NY or TX legislation say or fail to say that bothers you?



Quote:
And I will study the Mondragon Cooperative Corporation to see what I think.
You might need some links to avoid leaping to uninformed, premature judgements. Want some?



Quote:
BTW, please link to claimed studies such as the Rutgers one again so I could check.
https://vtdigger.org/2017/05/17/sena...rt-nationwide/
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Old February 21st, 2018, 03:59 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Kode View Post
You're worried about the government supporting this with taxpayer dollars, right? Mondragon allocated a portion of profits to form a bank that lends money to other WSDE start-ups. The state laws establish government funds for lending loans to WSDE start-ups.




What does the NY or TX legislation say or fail to say that bothers you?




You might need some links to avoid leaping to uninformed, premature judgements. Want some?




https://vtdigger.org/2017/05/17/sena...rt-nationwide/
What is the default rate of loans to such start-ups?

It's nothing about the laws, it's that I haven't seen a great increase in number of that type of business in those states.

And given my first chat with Mx. Google, it appeared that there were more, let's say sympathetic articles than others. Even the Wikipedia article was labelled as being from someone too close to the organization or the concept.

Thanks for the link.

Edit: I went through the link and followed the link in there and although they mention Rutgers, it doesn't reference the study. Invariably such studies have assumptions and I want to check them out in this case.

Last edited by RNG; February 21st, 2018 at 04:01 PM.
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Old February 21st, 2018, 04:39 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by RNG View Post
What is the default rate of loans to such start-ups?
I don't know. What's the default rate for capitalist start-ups?


Quote:
It's nothing about the laws, it's that I haven't seen a great increase in number of that type of business in those states.
Patience my friend, patience! It's just getting started. A total of 6 states passing laws should be a hint it's just beginning. There are about 30,000 co-ops in the US but only about 1,000 of them are WSDEs.


Quote:
And given my first chat with Mx. Google, it appeared that there were more, let's say sympathetic articles than others. Even the Wikipedia article was labelled as being from someone too close to the organization or the concept.
"Too close"? So you would rather learn about WSDEs from a source that is opposed to them and sure to spin it that way? LOL!!!!


Quote:
Thanks for the link.

Edit: I went through the link and followed the link in there and although they mention Rutgers, it doesn't reference the study.
"Rutgers University, which has studied the topic extensively, has found that employee ownership boosted company productivity by an average of 4 percent, while profits went up 14 percent."



Quote:
Invariably such studies have assumptions and I want to check them out in this case.
"Rutgers University" in the statement I just quoted is a link. Try searching the Rutgers website it links to. Click on their "NEWS" link and the first thing you see is an article: "EMPLOYEE OWNERSHIP CAN BOOST NY ECONOMY, FAMILIES"

They also have a "Contact Us" link so you can ask them for what you require. Sheesh.
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Old February 21st, 2018, 05:50 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Kode View Post
I don't know. What's the default rate for capitalist start-ups?
High, that's my point. But very few capitalist start-ups get government loans.

Quote:
Patience my friend, patience! It's just getting started. A total of 6 states passing laws should be a hint it's just beginning. There are about 30,000 co-ops in the US but only about 1,000 of them are WSDEs.
I'm not holding my breath. Another factor that might make it more plausible in the Basque region is a different societal view.

Quote:
"Too close"? So you would rather learn about WSDEs from a source that is opposed to them and sure to spin it that way? LOL!!!!
Now, I suspect you are being disingenuous. In Wikipedia talk,

Quote:
"Rutgers University, which has studied the topic extensively, has found that employee ownership boosted company productivity by an average of 4 percent, while profits went up 14 percent."


"Rutgers University" in the statement I just quoted is a link. Try searching the Rutgers website it links to. Click on their "NEWS" link and the first thing you see is an article: "EMPLOYEE OWNERSHIP CAN BOOST NY ECONOMY, FAMILIES"

They also have a "Contact Us" link so you can ask them for what you require. Sheesh.
Your link leads to some homepage for the Rutgers department which lead the study.

Your claim, your responsibility.
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Old February 21st, 2018, 06:17 PM   #17
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This "different form of ownership makes sense, the current form wastes a tremendous amount of resources on executives who manage to capture a corporation.
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Old February 21st, 2018, 08:21 PM   #18
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I think it is great that this is the first Socialist I have ever seen on here who can logically answer a question.
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Old February 21st, 2018, 09:04 PM   #19
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I think it is great that this is the first Socialist I have ever seen on here who can logically answer a question.
Now we should talk about the subject of the OP, which involves that actual history of socialism and Marxism, and why the new strategy I've described came about. We'll discover that there has never been a communist country or even a country with a predominantly socialist economy. And it turns out that Russia and China and other countries attempting to create a socialist economy violated a basic rule/guideline that Marx laid out, and that is why they failed.
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