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Old April 9th, 2011, 02:29 AM   #1
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I advocate replacing income taxes with a general consumption tax to whatever extent feasible. An intelligently drafted consumption tax is simpler and superior to an intelligently drafted income tax. Our income taxes ainít all that intelligently drafted.







Improving our income taxes should not and will not hinder our efforts to (the greatest extent feasible) simultaneously shifting portions of our income taxes to a general consumption tax. If itís feasible to finally eliminate our entire income tax systems then our federal income taxes will cease to exist.







Weíre going to be dealing with income taxes for a long time. We should do our best to improve them.







Respectfully, Supposn
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Old April 9th, 2011, 04:52 AM   #2
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Sounds regressive supposn, a consumption tax will hurt working people because working people tend to spend their entire checks. Consumption tax over an income tax will favor the wealthy over the working poor in this country. I do like that itís simple though.
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Old April 9th, 2011, 05:00 AM   #3
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Does "consumption" mean things actually consumed, or could it apply to services, or what?



Is this similar to a VAT?
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Old April 9th, 2011, 05:10 AM   #4
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Sounds regressive supposn, a consumption tax will hurt working people because working people tend to spend their entire checks. Consumption tax over an income tax will favor the wealthy over the working poor in this country. I do like that itís simple though.


A VAT is a consumption tax. We have a problem here, Fayt.



Socialistic superstar states such as Sweden (25 percent) and Germany (19 percent) have a VAT. How do you square that with your praise for those countries?
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Old April 9th, 2011, 05:22 AM   #5
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Does "consumption" mean things actually consumed, or could it apply to services, or what?



Is this similar to a VAT?




I've said something about this before, a consumption tax is basically what has been done more often in modern history. It's a more "normal" way to tax. For example you tax on roads. One can argue that it's a more fair way to tax because it's a tax by consumption. Basically if you use something you pay for it like tolls. Everyone hates to pay tolls but one can argue that's a fairer way because youíre paying for what youíre using.



Now a V.A.T. tax is similar to the Fair Tax in that it's a tax on consumption. For example, if someone creates a sheet of steel to go on an car, that supplier will have to charge a tax to the manufacturer, then manufacturer has to charge a sales tax on top of that one when he sale it to the people. So the V.A.T. tax is that on every step along the way in a process of something being constructed, built on product being delivered there's a V.A.T. tax. Everyone along the way charge a tax of course to the value added to the intermediate product. It's very common in Europe.



Now when I as a progressive who supports the progressive income tax hears conservatives yell about the V.A.T. tax, (which is really a step in the direction towards a consumption tax (which the conservatives are championing with the Fair Tax) it's my definition of insanity. This is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting to get a different result is the first or saying that you hate something but in the second breath saying that you want it but I'm in no way saying Supposn is that.





Now here's my favorite. An income tax is basically a form of social engineering. Which I'm sure conservatives see it as a form of socialism. But the one reason why this country has been so stable is that WE the people and our leaders decided that we want a middle class. We don't want to have this big gap between the have and the have not. Allot of people on the conservative side want to remove (and already have) that safety nets plus more.



An income tax (which is graduated) charges more tax on the amount of money that you make or in other words, the more income you make the more you're taxed and which is a form of redistribution. Which is really from a social engineering prospective, is a way to keep everybody on the field and wanting to play the game. It's the most fair of all the other ways and it's proven to be that way.



Now we can end up like some south America or some other 3rd world countries like Chili, Brazil, Mexico, and etc were they have this big gap and basically no middle class. And you have a situation where there are a lot of very poor people with nothing to lose who necessarily don't want to play the game (and that's why you have revolutions). When a society gets to a point where the people don't have any hope left for their children (not to mention themselves), their children has little or non chance of achieving the fruits of THEIR society, why should you participate? Why should you play the game?
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Old April 9th, 2011, 05:42 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Fayt View Post
I've said something about this before, a consumption tax is basically what has been done more often in modern history. It's a more "normal" way to tax. For example you tax on roads. One can argue that it's a more fair way to tax because it's a tax by consumption. Basically if you use something you pay for it like tolls. Everyone hates to pay tolls but one can argue that's a fairer way because youíre paying for what youíre using.



Now a V.A.T. tax is similar to the Fair Tax in that it's a tax on consumption. For example, if someone creates a sheet of steel to go on an car, that supplier will have to charge a tax to the manufacturer, then manufacturer has to charge a sales tax on top of that one when he sale it to the people. So the V.A.T. tax is that on every step along the way in a process of something being constructed, built on product being delivered there's a V.A.T. tax. Everyone along the way charge a tax a course to the value added to the intermediate product. It's very common in Europe.



Now when I as a progressive who supports the progressive income tax hears conservatives yell about the V.A.T. tax, (which is really a step in the direction towards a consumption tax, which the conservatives are championing with the Fair Tax) it's my definition of insanity. This is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting to get a different result is the first or saying that you hate something but in the second breath saying that you want it but I'm in no way saying Supposn is that.





Now here's my favorite. An income tax is basically a form of social engineering. Which I'm sure conservatives see it as a form of socialism. But the one reason why this country has been so stable is that WE the people and our leaders decided that we want a middle class. We don't want to have this big gap between the have and the have not. Allot of people on the conservative side want to remove (and already have) that safety nets plus more.



An income tax (which is graduated) charges more tax for the money that you make or in other words, the more income you make the more you're taxed and which is a form of redistribution. Which is really from a social engineering prospective, is a way to keep everybody on the field and wanting to play the game. It's the most fair of all the other ways and it's proven to be that way.



Now we can end up like some south American or some other 3rd would countries like Chili, Brazil, Mexico, and etc were they have this big gap and basically no middle class. And you have a situation where there are a lot of very poor people with nothing to lose who necessarily don't want to play the game (and that's why you have revolution). When a society gets to a point where the people don't has any hope left for their children (not to mention themselves), their children has little or non chance of achieving the fruits of THEIR society, why should you participate? Why should you play the game?


Quote:
The cruel joke about Brazil was that it was the country of the future ó and always would be. But now, Brazil is meeting its potential like never before.





Impressive economic growth, a booming commodity sector and the country's popular government are receiving worldwide attention. The country's center-left president, Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva ó who as a boy shined shoes on the street ó has led a crusade against poverty.



Innovative state programs, along with the economic growth, are lifting millions of Brazilians into the middle class and making the country a model for the developing world.


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=120940918



Chile and Mexico have seen growth in the middle class, too.



Can you explain why you're comfortable with government social engineering? It's a trait liberals and neoconservatives share, and a trait paleoconservatives and libertarians abhor.
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Old April 9th, 2011, 06:12 AM   #7
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http://www.npr.org/t...oryId=120940918



Chile and Mexico have seen growth in the middle class, too.



Can you explain why you're comfortable with government social engineering? It's a trait liberals and neoconservatives share, and a trait paleoconservatives and libertarians abhor.




Well thanks imaginethat, I now know that Brazil and some what Mexico are not considered 3rd world. But they're still considered a developing country due to its huge gaps in wealth distribution and human development rates, Chile as well. My point still stands. I'm a progressive imaginethat, I'm comfortable with the progressive tax system. We still have a "progressive" tax based system today but you know what has happen to that past the last 30 years.
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Old April 9th, 2011, 06:33 AM   #8
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Well thanks imaginethat, I now know that Brazil and some what Mexico are considered 3rd world. But they're still considered a developing country due to its huge gaps in wealth distribution and human development rates, Chile as well. My point still stands. I'm a progressive imaginethat, I'm comfortable with the progressive tax system. We still have a "progressive" tax based system today but you know what has happen to that past the last 30 years.


I'm aware of your position on a progressive income tax, but back to topic and a question I asked.



A VAT is a consumption tax. Socialistic superstar states such as Sweden (25 percent) and Germany (19 percent) have a VAT. How do you square that with your praise for those countries?
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Old April 9th, 2011, 06:58 AM   #9
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I'm aware of your position on a progressive income tax, but back to topic and a question I asked.



A VAT is a consumption tax. Socialistic superstar states such as Sweden (25 percent) and Germany (19 percent) have a VAT. How do you square that with your praise for those countries?


Simple, Iím against the total annihilation of the progressive tax system imaginethat. Countries like Germany and Sweden both have a progressive tax system. Sweden taxes are almost twice as much as ours in the U.S. and Germany top tax rate are in the high 40 percent range. (46% I believe). To add, Germany has some of the highest unionization rates in all of the OECD countries. Swedenís minimum wage is between $18 and $20 dollars an hour. Our wages in the U.S. has been stagnated for over 30 years, unionization rates are lower than ever, and to add we have a terrible trade polices that allowed our good well paying manufacturing jobs to move overseas. Iím against adding something as regressive as the Consumption Tax (aka, National Sales Tax) like Iíve explained. The working American poor canít afford it.



(Oh and correction Brazil and Mexico are not considered 3rd world, I forgot to add not.)
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Old April 9th, 2011, 08:59 AM   #10
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I against having both an income tax and a VAT tax. I have yet to become convinced that the VAT tax is a better way to go.
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