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Old December 9th, 2017, 03:29 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Marcus Livius View Post
I didn't say Yamamoto did not want seize Midway, I said Midway was not capable of being a support base. The invasion force and follow-up occupation force was to eliminate Midway as seaplane/flying-boat base and take away the forward airstrip for the bomber attacks against Wake Island.

The Aleutian invasion was a compromise to the IJA in exchange for the Army support for Midway.
I don't disagree......I doubt if the Hawaiian Islands were ever an objective.... Japan wanted hegemony in the East....They believed Asians were a superior culture and it was Japan's obligation to lead them..Asia Co-prosperity Sphere...
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Old January 9th, 2018, 11:00 AM   #72
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Falling off Mt. Fuji

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What would have happened if instead of attacking Pearl Harbor, the Japanese had attacked the tank farm on the hill above Pearl Harbor, and destroyed the oil and gasoline supplies.

The US Navy in the Pacific would have to operate out of California, there would have been no bloody shirt to wave.
It would have been difficult if not impossible to unite the nation over an oil fire.
And the effect on naval operations in the Pacific would have been more devastating than the result of the Pearl Harbor attack, an intact ship without fuel can't go any farther than a sunken ship. The carriers that were victorious at Midway, would have been tied up without fuel.

When asked after the war, the Japanese war planners said it never crossed their minds, they couldn't imagine the "Rich Nation" without oil.
Yah. IJN had planned a third wave @ Pearl, to attack the POL & repair facilities. But by then they were getting serious AAA, & they were nervous about the missing US carriers. They called it a day.

If the Hawaii POL had been destroyed, the US military would have evacuated all the Hawaii civilians - or @ least directed all POL to the Navy. (As it was, the old battleships, even once refloated & repaired, were often left behind - their power plants were too thirsty, & the fast carriers were better able to project power.) With that understanding, the carrier groups would have been prioritized for POL - everybody else would have suffered - probably MacArthur's Army command would have been cut off the pipeline.

The Imperial Japanese military were peculiarly unconcerned about logistics. They lost nearly their entire cargo/trawler fleet during WWII because they never prioritized defending their lifeline - POL, food, ores, rubber, etc. I assume that the IJ military were obsessed about bushido & the big-gun final showdown with the USN - & they may have figured that an over concern with trade was unworthy of warriors.
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Old January 9th, 2018, 11:15 AM   #73
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Couldn't be done

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Originally Posted by TNVolunteer73 View Post
There mistake was not putting a land force on the Hawai'ian Islands

if they had they would have not only held the islands, they would have control over the fleet and could have savlaged the ships for their own warships. leaving the west coast of the US totally open to naval attacks.

This would have forced the US to take a Japan First instead of taking Europe first,

UK would have fell, then the Germans would have only had a one front war against the USSR.

this would have given the Germans time to Develop the bomb, and left the US and Canada isolated they already had allies in South America.

leaving the US to fight a 3 front war. And if Japan could have taken Alaska then the Western provnces of Canada a 4 front war.
The IJA had lots of troops, haring about Korea, Manchuria & China, in a never-ending mission to conquer China. It couldn't be done - there was no one left to surrender. Plus IJ didn't have the sealift to transport even just the troops to Hawaii. (They typically transported troops, weapons, ammo, fuel, each soldier had a sack with maybe a week's rations - otherwise, they were to forage for food. They'd have starved in no time, certainly the US wasn't about to transport food for them.)

The IJN barely was able to reach the launch point for the Hawaii air raids, & that's all they were. Despite the panic on the US West Coast, the CONUS was never in any danger of an invasion from IJ.

The Nazis were on the wrong track to develop their own atomic bomb - they overestimated how much critical mass they needed. The German research effort was scattered, & never was a priority - they decided that atomic weapons wouldn't be developed in time for WWII.
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Old January 9th, 2018, 11:26 AM   #74
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They relied too much on the spirit of bushido

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.They had the forces, Admiral Yamamoto said if you attack better take the Island or We will awaken as sleeping giant, and he will be at our door.
IJA had the ground forces. What they didn't have was a way to transport them to Hawaii, nor to sustain them in the field. (& the IJA wasn't about to pack up & turn tail & run from China, Manchuria, Korea - after all the time & effort they'd expended to put themselves into a blind alley.)

Just recalling & concentrating & shipping the IJA ground forces from China & Manchuria would have been a major undertaking - & an admission of defeat of the IJA by the IJN. The IJA wasn't about to do that - they'd sooner lose the war - & so they did.

IJA & IJN were @ each other's throats throughout the IJ campaigns in Asia - they pursued separate objectives, & lost piecemeal. IJ's attack on Hawaii was a gamble, they estimated that they could operate their economy & military for only a few months, if they didn't strike @ the US Navy @ Hawaii & run the table in the Pacific.
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Old January 9th, 2018, 02:22 PM   #75
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[QUOTE=hoosier88;1132004]IJA had the ground forces. What they didn't have was a way to transport them to Hawaii, nor to sustain them in the field. (& the IJA wasn't about to pack up & turn tail & run from China, Manchuria, Korea - after all the time & effort they'd expended to put themselves into a blind alley.)

Just recalling & concentrating & shipping the IJA ground forces from China & Manchuria would have been a major undertaking - & an admission of defeat of the IJA by the IJN. The IJA wasn't about to do that - they'd sooner lose the war - & so they did.

IJA & IJN were @ each other's throats throughout the IJ campaigns in Asia - they pursued separate objectives, & lost piecemeal. IJ's attack on Hawaii was a gamble, they estimated that they could operate their economy & military for only a few months, if they didn't strike @ the US Navy @ Hawaii & run the table in the Pacific.[/QUOTE

Japanese learned to surivive on minimals as we say during the Island hopping. Hell they survived multiple bombing and naval bombardments to kill 10s of 1000s of US soldiers..

The only way we controlled the pacific was because WE CONTROLLED Hawai'i
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Old January 9th, 2018, 02:27 PM   #76
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Today is the 76th anniversary of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7, 1941. Just in case anyone is interested.

And most importantly it's my Birthday!
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