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Old March 10th, 2018, 09:39 PM   #11
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Hmmm, we seem to prefer to confront "evil" primarily if it's happening in places with lots of oil or other natural resources we value or it's physical location is of stratigic/economic importance to us.

I'm sure that is just a coincidence.
Afghanistan has no resources that make it unique or valuable in grand strategy, except maybe its opium.
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Old March 10th, 2018, 10:06 PM   #12
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It’s been well documented that before 9/11, Islamic fundamentalists and nationalist terrorists in the Middle East targeted the United States for any of all of the following reasons:

1. US support for Israel
2. US support for Saudi Arabia
3. The US being the supposed centre of the Western and Christian world

These groups then, and certainly today, had and have no interest in ideas of imperialism. The US and other great powers have always been “meddling” in the affairs of other countries. It’s called power projection, and no matter its motives, historically proven to be not only natural, but wise. Tell me a great Empire from history that didn’t get to where it was and stay there in part through power projection, Hegemony and global economic interdependence. And so these groups attacked the West for two reasons:

1. Cultural differences
2. Realpolitik (they’re revisionist organizations, seeking to destroy Israel and reform everyone else toward Islamic fundamentalism and international jihadism)

Among the files found at the hideout of Bin Laden were plans for major attacks against the US similar to the scale of 9/11. If we had stopped hunting and fighting these scumbags they wouldn’t have stopped attacking us. Like Hitler, encouraged by victory, they’d keep going until they lost, more and more innocents would die or be enslaved across the globe while North American national security would face some of its most dire threats in its short history.

It took a long time, but we won in Iraq. Al Qaeda and ISIS are destroyed. Crises of Islamic fundamentalism in Syria, Lebanon, the Gaza Strip and Yemen are contained. Pakistan is slowly starting to realize it’s no longer smart to play both sides. And so, even though we’ve got a long way to go before stabilizing Afghanistan, we have at least destroyed any possibility of it being used as a base for jihadism again.

This is the reason why we have seen a massive increase in jihadism in Africa. The enemy is on the retreat, looking for new areas of refuge, conquest and resources.

I can’t even count the amount of books I’ve read about counterinsurgency warfare and statebuilding as part of my education at the Royal Military College of Canada, and if there’s one thing I’ve learned it’s this: defeating a guerrila Force is certainly possible, but it almost always takes a very long time, and requires the idiot politicians, public and media to STFU and let the military do its job.

I want to end with this: think of the millions of people starving, enslaved, tortured, raped and murdered. It’s this kind of inhumanity that keeps me up at night and is a large part of why I joined the military. We have to be smart yes, and we have to be selective yes, but we cannot simply do nothing! I do not understand how pacifists can sleep at night knowing they’re promoting standing by while innocent people across the globe suffer indefinitely. Humanitarian aid helps, but doesn’t solve the problem, and often this aid only ends up in the hands of the bad guys. And of course, you can’t negotiate with these animals.
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Old March 10th, 2018, 10:17 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by locke23 View Post
It’s been well documented that before 9/11, Islamic fundamentalists and nationalist terrorists in the Middle East targeted the United States for any of all of the following reasons:

1. US support for Israel
2. US support for Saudi Arabia
3. The US being the supposed centre of the Western and Christian world

These groups then, and certainly today, had and have no interest in ideas of imperialism. The US and other great powers have always been “meddling” in the affairs of other countries. It’s called power projection, and no matter its motives, historically proven to be not only natural, but wise. Tell me a great Empire from history that didn’t get to where it was and stay there in part through power projection, Hegemony and global economic interdependence. And so these groups attacked the West for two reasons:

1. Cultural differences
2. Realpolitik (they’re revisionist organizations, seeking to destroy Israel and reform everyone else toward Islamic fundamentalism and international jihadism)

Among the files found at the hideout of Bin Laden were plans for major attacks against the US similar to the scale of 9/11. If we had stopped hunting and fighting these scumbags they wouldn’t have stopped attacking us. Like Hitler, encouraged by victory, they’d keep going until they lost, more and more innocents would die or be enslaved across the globe while North American national security would face some of its most dire threats in its short history.

It took a long time, but we won in Iraq. Al Qaeda and ISIS are destroyed. Crises of Islamic fundamentalism in Syria, Lebanon, the Gaza Strip and Yemen are contained. Pakistan is slowly starting to realize it’s no longer smart to play both sides. And so, even though we’ve got a long way to go before stabilizing Afghanistan, we have at least destroyed any possibility of it being used as a base for jihadism again.

This is the reason why we have seen a massive increase in jihadism in Africa. The enemy is on the retreat, looking for new areas of refuge, conquest and resources.

I can’t even count the amount of books I’ve read about counterinsurgency warfare and statebuilding as part of my education at the Royal Military College of Canada, and if there’s one thing I’ve learned it’s this: defeating a guerrila Force is certainly possible, but it almost always takes a very long time, and requires the idiot politicians, public and media to STFU and let the military do its job.

I want to end with this: think of the millions of people starving, enslaved, tortured, raped and murdered. It’s this kind of inhumanity that keeps me up at night and is a large part of why I joined the military. We have to be smart yes, and we have to be selective yes, but we cannot simply do nothing! I do not understand how pacifists can sleep at night knowing they’re promoting standing by while innocent people across the globe suffer indefinitely. Humanitarian aid helps, but doesn’t solve the problem, and often this aid only ends up in the hands of the bad guys. And of course, you can’t negotiate with these animals.
Very well thought out and articulate response. President Trump has stepped back and allowed the military to do its job under the direction of Mattis. It does appear to be working.

Now, I am sure you are going to see rebuttals. The highlights will be, imperialism, colonialism, white man, and religion.
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Old March 10th, 2018, 10:22 PM   #14
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Afghanistan has no resources that make it unique or valuable in grand strategy, except maybe its opium.
You really need to do more research. In order to ensure that all the devices and internet access that you already have today and will still be available and serviceable for the foreseeable future is why we are in Afghanistan.
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Old March 10th, 2018, 10:38 PM   #15
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You really need to do more research. In order to ensure that all the devices and internet access that you already have today and will still be available and serviceable for the foreseeable future is why we are in Afghanistan.
So we invaded Afghanistan in 2001 for resources for sustaining computer and internet electronics, an industry that was coming about but almost zero lobbying power or influence within major NGOs like the World Bank? To be honest that’s the first I’m hearing of this argument, but it’s just as funny as the others.
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Old March 11th, 2018, 04:10 AM   #16
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On Darfur - or Sudan (I'm not sure who was directing things in Darfur)? From the US point of view, it probably depended on who was buying the oil/natgas from Sudan - lately China has been moving in on the Third World - especially Africa - on building infrastructure, refineries, pipelines, networks, comms, etc. - or financing them (& design, build, providing materials & workforce & equipment & operators - practically vertical integration of the whole package, from proposal to finance/insurance & implementation, to a turn-key solution). If China wasn't buying nor building, we might have been happy to keep China out & just let Sudan go on their merry way.

It should be possible to see who was buying output @ the time, & who the refineries & etc. belonged to & who was operating all that. Offhand, that's all I can think of, in terms of why we would have let the deals stand as they were. Especially if the end buyers were Western European - thereby putting a thumb in the CIS' oil/natgas market, depriving them of some hard currency. & giving the Western European countries some leverage to negotiate better oil/natgas deals with the CIS. A kinda Realpolitik win-win for the US & Western Europe - but hard on the people in Darfur.
My Chinese wife and I were in Lusaka Zambia in 2014, and the city has a lot of Chinese people there, and Chinese characters can be easily found. A lot of Chinese hung out in the local casinos. Doing different things there. A lot of Chinese see Africa as a new frontier, like the Indians did after WWII.

While a bit boring, except for the Victoria Falls, Zambia is a nice country to visit, and while not a great city, Lusaka is cosmopolitan enough with some whites, Middle Eastern people and Chinese.
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Old March 11th, 2018, 04:23 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by locke23 View Post
It’s been well documented that before 9/11, Islamic fundamentalists and nationalist terrorists in the Middle East targeted the United States for any of all of the following reasons:

1. US support for Israel
2. US support for Saudi Arabia
3. The US being the supposed centre of the Western and Christian world

These groups then, and certainly today, had and have no interest in ideas of imperialism. The US and other great powers have always been “meddling” in the affairs of other countries. It’s called power projection, and no matter its motives, historically proven to be not only natural, but wise. Tell me a great Empire from history that didn’t get to where it was and stay there in part through power projection, Hegemony and global economic interdependence. And so these groups attacked the West for two reasons:

1. Cultural differences
2. Realpolitik (they’re revisionist organizations, seeking to destroy Israel and reform everyone else toward Islamic fundamentalism and international jihadism)

Among the files found at the hideout of Bin Laden were plans for major attacks against the US similar to the scale of 9/11. If we had stopped hunting and fighting these scumbags they wouldn’t have stopped attacking us. Like Hitler, encouraged by victory, they’d keep going until they lost, more and more innocents would die or be enslaved across the globe while North American national security would face some of its most dire threats in its short history.

It took a long time, but we won in Iraq. Al Qaeda and ISIS are destroyed. Crises of Islamic fundamentalism in Syria, Lebanon, the Gaza Strip and Yemen are contained. Pakistan is slowly starting to realize it’s no longer smart to play both sides. And so, even though we’ve got a long way to go before stabilizing Afghanistan, we have at least destroyed any possibility of it being used as a base for jihadism again.

This is the reason why we have seen a massive increase in jihadism in Africa. The enemy is on the retreat, looking for new areas of refuge, conquest and resources.

I can’t even count the amount of books I’ve read about counterinsurgency warfare and statebuilding as part of my education at the Royal Military College of Canada, and if there’s one thing I’ve learned it’s this: defeating a guerrila Force is certainly possible, but it almost always takes a very long time, and requires the idiot politicians, public and media to STFU and let the military do its job.

I want to end with this: think of the millions of people starving, enslaved, tortured, raped and murdered. It’s this kind of inhumanity that keeps me up at night and is a large part of why I joined the military. We have to be smart yes, and we have to be selective yes, but we cannot simply do nothing! I do not understand how pacifists can sleep at night knowing they’re promoting standing by while innocent people across the globe suffer indefinitely. Humanitarian aid helps, but doesn’t solve the problem, and often this aid only ends up in the hands of the bad guys. And of course, you can’t negotiate with these animals.
Some pretty simplistic views embedded in all those words

Whatever helps you sleep at night i guess.

There are a lot more reasons that other people are upset with the US, than the 3 you mentioned. I am not saying those 3 are not important, but the US has done a lot of shit over the years and pissed a lot of people off. Also, the what, 2 reasons or whatever that you mentioned later on about fighting us, instead of just "cultural differences" why wouldnt you see it as defending one's culture, land, and heritage against a superior invading force? I am pretty sure many of the tribes in Afghanistan see it that way, and not just a cultural difference

By the way, ISIS is not gone yet, unfortunately. And ..... Afghanistan certainly is still in danger of being a hot bed for radical Islamic groups, or have you not had your class on that war yet

By the way, nobody is supporting harsh tyrants, and calling your enemies "animals" is like some horrible old school way of demonizing and dehumanizing not only your enemy, but other people who live there. We are better than that now, or damn well should be.
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Old March 11th, 2018, 07:06 AM   #18
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There's tremendous potential wealth in the mountains

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Afghanistan has no resources that make it unique or valuable in grand strategy, except maybe its opium.
No - but the US & the West have been conspicuously absent in even trying to participate in the rare earths & ores & petro wealth there. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan#Economy

"Michael E. O'Hanlon of the Brookings Institution estimated that if Afghanistan generates about $10 bn per year from its mineral deposits, its gross national product would double and provide long-term funding for Afghan security forces and other critical needs.[163] The United States Geological Survey (USGS) estimated in 2006 that northern Afghanistan has an average 2.9 billion (bn) barrels (bbl) of crude oil, 15.7 trillion cubic feet (440 bn m3) of natural gas, and 562 million bbl of natural gas liquids.[164] In 2011, Afghanistan signed an oil exploration contract with China National Petroleum Corporation (CNPC) for the development of three oil fields along the Amu Darya river in the north.[165]

"The country has significant amounts of lithium, copper, gold, coal, iron ore, and other minerals.[123][124][166] The Khanashin carbonatite in Helmand Province contains 1,000,000 metric tons (1,100,000 short tons) of rare earth elements.[167] In 2007, a 30-year lease was granted for the Aynak copper mine to the China Metallurgical Group for $3 billion,[168] making it the biggest foreign investment and private business venture in Afghanistan's history.[169] The state-run Steel Authority of India won the mining rights to develop the huge Hajigak iron ore deposit in central Afghanistan.[170] Government officials estimate that 30% of the country's untapped mineral deposits are worth at least $1 trillion.[125] One official asserted that "this will become the backbone of the Afghan economy" and a Pentagon memo stated that Afghanistan could become the "Saudi Arabia of lithium".[171] In a 2011 news story, the CSM reported, "The United States and other Western nations that have borne the brunt of the cost of the Afghan war have been conspicuously absent from the bidding process on Afghanistan's mineral deposits, leaving it mostly to regional powers."[172]"

(My emphasis - more @ the URL)

I don't know why we - the US - aren't trying harder to gain access to Afghanistan's mineral wealth. China does border Afghanistan directly, so maybe we're conceding that Afghan is likelier in their sphere of interest. But even so, I'm surprised.
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Old March 11th, 2018, 08:49 AM   #19
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Afghanistan has no resources that make it unique or valuable in grand strategy, except maybe its opium.
Afghanistan's resources could make it the richest mining region on earth | The Independent

Plus it is in a strategic location for pipeline routes.
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Old March 11th, 2018, 09:02 AM   #20
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Maybe he hasnt had that class yet?

Strange that so many of us without a job that would make us take part in a war in that country understand this tho.....
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