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Old April 1st, 2018, 08:43 AM   #41
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Good overview. As I recall, it was UK Naval First Lord of the Admiralty Churchill who was instrumental in moving the UK Navy off of coal & onto oil before WWI. An excellent choice, & I believe the UK & allied victory was @ least partially credited to that change. (See Oil & WWI - also Engdahl's book.)

In larger terms, UK's foreign policy in Europe was always to keep an economic/military/political rival from gathering strength there, to rival UK's. UK's military/political policy was to maintain a very strong navy, & secondarily an army - just in case. But the emphasis was on the navy, to ensure British trade & free oceanic passage.
We have plenty of agreements, however, Germany building a railroad to Baghdad was a serious threat to Britain and its hold on India. The biggest concern was the ease with which the Germans could move troops if it had the railroad. The shift from coal to gas made the oil more important, and it was a hard to process and move that gas fast enough.

On the other hand, because Germany was disadvantaged when it came to naval force, it developed air warfare more so than any others and this was a huge advantage. And Japan's development of air warfare came as a big shock.

Because of your delightful knowledge of the subject, and ability to discuss the subject, I am pushed to find more links and learn new things.

This link links a person to many other links and the pictures can be exciting.

https://www.google.com/search?q=wwII...M6OSBGZQj_QIM:

This comes from the above link. It is about a book and I think I want to add that add book to my collection.

Quote:
Merseburg: Blood, Flak & Oil USAAF WWII Bombing Campaign against the Leuna Refinery - World War 2 (WWII) Military History Book

(Extract from personal diary)
MERSEBURG and its Leuna synthetic oil plant - was one of the most feared targets in Germany. The USAAF's 8th Air Force began an 18 mission campaign against the Nazis most important oil production site in May 1944 as part of the wider Oil Plan. Initial attacks were successful but as the Germans began to realise the magnitude of the threat to their vital supply of valuable fuel and specialist oils the defences at Merseburg were expanded to become the most feared of all - surpassing even Berlin.
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Old April 1st, 2018, 09:30 AM   #42
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Yah, I remembered 250k miles. Here's my source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_distance_(astronomy)

"Lunar distance (LD or Δ ⊕ L {\textstyle \Delta _{\oplus L}}), also called Earth–Moon distance, Earth–Moon characteristic distance, or distance to the Moon, is a unit of measure in astronomy. It is the average distance from the center of Earth to the center of the Moon. More technically, it is the mean semi-major axis of the geocentric lunar orbit. It may also refer to the time-averaged distance between the centers of the Earth and the Moon, or less commonly, the instantaneous Earth–Moon distance. The lunar distance is approximately a quarter of a million miles (400000 km).[1]

"The mean semi-major axis has a value of 384,402 km (238,856 mi).[2] The time-averaged distance between Earth and Moon centers is 385,000.6 km (239,228.3 mi). The actual distance varies over the course of the orbit of the Moon, from 356,500 km (221,500 mi) at the perigee to 406,700 km (252,700 mi) at apogee, resulting in a differential range of 50,200 km (31,200 mi).[3]"

(My emphasis - Did I pick the wrong one?)

Yah, master is my bad, finger check.

"Laser

"In 1957, Charles Hard Townes and Arthur Leonard Schawlow, then at Bell Labs, began a serious study of the infrared laser. As ideas developed, they abandoned infrared radiation to instead concentrate upon visible light. The concept originally was called an "optical maser". In 1958, Bell Labs filed a patent application for their proposed optical maser; and Schawlow and Townes submitted a manuscript of their theoretical calculations to the Physical Review, published that year in Volume 112, Issue No. 6."

(My emphasis - more @ the URL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser#Maser)

Yep, optical maser is an old name for it, not used much anymore, except maybe in historical discussions of the tech. & so it goes. However, TMK, a maser is a microwave emitter.
Microwave Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation

Substitute light as needed.
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Old April 1st, 2018, 09:51 AM   #43
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We have plenty of agreements, however, Germany building a railroad to Baghdad was a serious threat to Britain and its hold on India. The biggest concern was the ease with which the Germans could move troops if it had the railroad. The shift from coal to gas made the oil more important, and it was a hard to process and move that gas fast enough.

On the other hand, because Germany was disadvantaged when it came to naval force, it developed air warfare more so than any others and this was a huge advantage. And Japan's development of air warfare came as a big shock.

...
I'll take a look @ the link. Information is good.

I'm not sure that Kaiser Bill & the German political leadership pre-WWI understood that once they mobilized the troops (& all the train movements of troops & supplies that went with that) that they were committed to combat. The German mobilization plans were predicated on their internal lines of comms, so that they could move more troops & supplies further & faster (by rail) than the opposing forces could. Which meant that the German advantage was transitory - in order for that advantage to tell, it had to be exercised immediately. As tensions pre-WWI ratcheted up, the German military & political leadership hesitated to mobilize - but the UK & allies, with longer lead times from the order to mobilization, pressed ahead - & so eventually generated the pressure that caused Germany to mobilize - & thus plunged the World into WWI.

The German mobilization plans were all to attack - there was no contingency for form in place but don't attack, pending further instructions. Just as well - the mobilization plans & railroad schedules were a nightmare of interlocking cogs & wheels - the slightest deviation, & the whole plan would have ground to a halt.
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Old April 2nd, 2018, 07:09 AM   #44
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I'll take a look @ the link. Information is good.

I'm not sure that Kaiser Bill & the German political leadership pre-WWI understood that once they mobilized the troops (& all the train movements of troops & supplies that went with that) that they were committed to combat. The German mobilization plans were predicated on their internal lines of comms, so that they could move more troops & supplies further & faster (by rail) than the opposing forces could. Which meant that the German advantage was transitory - in order for that advantage to tell, it had to be exercised immediately. As tensions pre-WWI ratcheted up, the German military & political leadership hesitated to mobilize - but the UK & allies, with longer lead times from the order to mobilization, pressed ahead - & so eventually generated the pressure that caused Germany to mobilize - & thus plunged the World into WWI.

The German mobilization plans were all to attack - there was no contingency for form in place but don't attack, pending further instructions. Just as well - the mobilization plans & railroad schedules were a nightmare of interlocking cogs & wheels - the slightest deviation, & the whole plan would have ground to a halt.
Where are you getting your information? Is there a book I can buy? Do you know the name of a good psychiatrist? I don't know why this information excites me so much. Like it is of no practical use to me, but when I read what you wrote, I feel so alive and want a better understanding of what happened and why. Looks like need to know about Germany's railroad thinking.

What was ratcheting tensions from your point of view? This was all about grabbing the economic advantage, right? My book "The Anglo-German Problem" has a lot to say about Germany wanting to build up Turkey and liking the idea of Turkey reclaiming Egypt and gaining control of the Suez Canal. Thus unifying all Muslims in the Mid East, including India, against British control. Today's conflict of east and west is nothing new. Even back then this conflict was seen as a religious/cultural division that could be exploited. It seems to me, we are still trying to exploit that division, and well-meaning Christians who promote this by blaming Muslims for the tension in the world today, are part of the problem. What do you think? What if we understood and made the economic games these nations play clearly understood?

I know it is not socially correct to blame the Brits for the problems in the world today, but I think such an argument could be made? Not that I oppose the British people. The people of the world are not the ones causing the trouble, but a nations economic interest and egotistical leaders wanting to go down in history as great leaders. When we think politics we are thinking personal interest, such to make abortion legal or illegal, wall out the immigrants or include them, anything to do with our jobs and taxes. That is not the political game the likes of Bush and Cheney are playing!
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Last edited by Athena; April 2nd, 2018 at 07:14 AM.
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Old April 2nd, 2018, 09:00 AM   #45
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A short list

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Where are you getting your information? Is there a book I can buy? Do you know the name of a good psychiatrist? I don't know why this information excites me so much. Like it is of no practical use to me, but when I read what you wrote, I feel so alive and want a better understanding of what happened and why. Looks like need to know about Germany's railroad thinking.

What was ratcheting tensions from your point of view? This was all about grabbing the economic advantage, right? My book "The Anglo-German Problem" has a lot to say about Germany wanting to build up Turkey and liking the idea of Turkey reclaiming Egypt and gaining control of the Suez Canal. Thus unifying all Muslims in the Mid East, including India, against British control. ...
On the runup to WWI? The long shadow : the legacies of the Great War in the twentieth century / David Reynolds, 1952- , c2014, W. W. Norton & Company, 940.3 REYN 20014. A good primer.
The world remade : America in World War I / G.J. Meyer, 1940- , c2016, Bantam Books, 940.373 MEYE.

Middle East: Lawrence in Arabia : war, deceit, imperial folly and the making of the modern Middle East / Scott Anderson 1959 - . 940.3 ANDE 2013, Doubleday
Notes on a century : reflections of a Middle East historian / Bernard Lewis, 1916- ; with Buntzie Ellis Churchill, c2012, Viking, 956.015 LEWI.
Desert queen : the extraordinary life of Gertrude Bell, adventurer, adviser to kings, ally of Lawrence of Arabia / Janet Wallach, c1996, Anchor Books, 956.02 Wall

There are lots of books & documentaries & articles that are directly about the topics, & even more that mention them along the way. This is a fair start, especially the first on WWI. & the Lawrence of Arabia explains a lot, & gives a lot of background info.

Psychiatry isn't my field, I'm afraid.

The tensions in Europe pre-WWI? It had been a long peace, & the countries were grabbing (or still struggling) for Africa, Asia, SE Asia, the Caribbean. Czarist Russia was falling apart, the Ottoman Empire was on its last legs - & everybody was scrambling for advantage (see Sykes-Picot, the agreement between UK & France carving up the Middle East, with Russian support) Yes, Germany was trying to coopt Islam in its political/economic struggle with UK - but the forces they were trying to recruit were hard to control, & easily spun out onto their own trajectories.

WWI & Middle East are linked - but both are big topics. You might do better to look @ generalist books first, & see if there's a particular area that holds your interest.
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Old April 3rd, 2018, 05:56 AM   #46
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I am so excited, I can hardly stand it. It is so wonderful to communicate with such a well-informed person!

Middle East: Lawrence in Arabia : war, deceit, imperial folly and the making of the modern Middle East / Scott Anderson 1959 - . 940.3 ANDE 2013, Doubleday

and

Quote:
Desert queen : the extraordinary life of Gertrude Bell, adventurer, adviser to kings, ally of Lawrence of Arabia / Janet Wallach, c1996, Anchor Books, 956.02 Wall
Are both at my local library.

I didn't know there are so many books to choose from. My books come from second-hand stores, so I had no idea what is on the market. I love searching second-hand bookstores for hidden treasures. Mostly I focused on the history of education but got into the history of Germany because I knew we imitated German education. Later, when studying public policy and administration, at the U of O, I learned we adopted the model of German bureaucracy, which is Prussian military bureaucracy. Effectively, we are our what we defended our democracy against.

According to Charles Sarolea, socialism is the enemy of the New World Order or what Eisenhower called the Military Industrial Complex, and which we prefer is a matter of education and control of the media. Only the way he writes of socialism, it disperses power, and that is what is wrong with it. The New World Order/military industrial complex is about centralized power and boy oh boy do have we centralized power compare to our not so distant past. Trump is increasing that. He seems to want all power in his hands, as did Hitler, and this follows replacing our education with the German model of education for democracy for military and industrial purpose.

My old books about education, explain and demonstrate, how the US used public schools to mobilize the US for both wars. The US was being mobilized for war against Germany a good year before declaring war. Because of demobilizing after wars, to avoid being taxed to death, it took a long time to mobilize for war. It is amazing reading a pre-WWII grade school textbook explaining why the US democracy is better than Germany. We are much more like our enemy than we were when we defended our democracy from that enemy.

And all this brings us to the tensions in the world today. I love relating all of this to the conflict between Sparta and Athens, and what the Persian war has to do with Athens rise to power, just as the US rise to power following WWII. And then there is the history of Rome, that became dependent on importing resources, therefore, dependent on its military to protect its economic interest and becoming the target of barbarians and the immigration/tax problem that evolved. I wish we all studied history, not so much for the facts, but the perspective we get from knowing today's news isn't new.
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Old April 3rd, 2018, 07:00 AM   #47
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I am so excited, I can hardly stand it. It is so wonderful to communicate with such a well-informed person!

Middle East: Lawrence in Arabia : war, deceit, imperial folly and the making of the modern Middle East / Scott Anderson 1959 - . 940.3 ANDE 2013, Doubleday

and



Are both at my local library.

I didn't know there are so many books to choose from. My books come from second-hand stores, so I had no idea what is on the market. I love searching second-hand bookstores for hidden treasures. Mostly I focused on the history of education but got into the history of Germany because I knew we imitated German education. Later, when studying public policy and administration, at the U of O, I learned we adopted the model of German bureaucracy, which is Prussian military bureaucracy. Effectively, we are our what we defended our democracy against.

According to Charles Sarolea, socialism is the enemy of the New World Order or what Eisenhower called the Military Industrial Complex, and which we prefer is a matter of education and control of the media. Only the way he writes of socialism, it disperses power, and that is what is wrong with it. The New World Order/military industrial complex is about centralized power and boy oh boy do have we centralized power compare to our not so distant past. Trump is increasing that. He seems to want all power in his hands, as did Hitler, and this follows replacing our education with the German model of education for democracy for military and industrial purpose.

My old books about education, explain and demonstrate, how the US used public schools to mobilize the US for both wars. The US was being mobilized for war against Germany a good year before declaring war. Because of demobilizing after wars, to avoid being taxed to death, it took a long time to mobilize for war. It is amazing reading a pre-WWII grade school textbook explaining why the US democracy is better than Germany. We are much more like our enemy than we were when we defended our democracy from that enemy.

And all this brings us to the tensions in the world today. I love relating all of this to the conflict between Sparta and Athens, and what the Persian war has to do with Athens rise to power, just as the US rise to power following WWII. And then there is the history of Rome, that became dependent on importing resources, therefore, dependent on its military to protect its economic interest and becoming the target of barbarians and the immigration/tax problem that evolved. I wish we all studied history, not so much for the facts, but the perspective we get from knowing today's news isn't new.
The story of Lawrence of Arabia (T.E. Lawrence) is fascinating. Many of the problems we face in the mid-east today are a direct result of the betrayal by the Allies, primarily the British and French, of the native peoples of the region as soon as the Ottoman Empire was crushed.
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Old April 3rd, 2018, 08:05 AM   #48
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...

My old books about education, explain and demonstrate, how the US used public schools to mobilize the US for both wars. The US was being mobilized for war against Germany a good year before declaring war. Because of demobilizing after wars, to avoid being taxed to death, it took a long time to mobilize for war. It is amazing reading a pre-WWII grade school textbook explaining why the US democracy is better than Germany. We are much more like our enemy than we were when we defended our democracy from that enemy.

And all this brings us to the tensions in the world today. I love relating all of this to the conflict between Sparta and Athens, and what the Persian war has to do with Athens rise to power, just as the US rise to power following WWII. And then there is the history of Rome, that became dependent on importing resources, therefore, dependent on its military to protect its economic interest and becoming the target of barbarians and the immigration/tax problem that evolved. I wish we all studied history, not so much for the facts, but the perspective we get from knowing today's news isn't new.
Yes, it's a pleasure to have a nice conversation.

On Sparta & Athens - it's been too long, since World History back in high school. I get some of that history (on the Persian side, @ least) from various books on the Middle East. But it's kinda oblique, not the main theme, usually.

The rise of the US on the World stage - my impression is that the historians usually date that from 1898, the Spanish-American War - we took Cuba, Puerto Rico, the Philippines. We still have a hold on PR, although it's not direct anymore. & Spain was in desperate trouble by that point. Still, history has a way of surprising you when you least expect it.

There's certainly plenty to discuss.
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Old April 3rd, 2018, 08:10 AM   #49
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Sweet Jesus!!!! Intelligent people wanting to talk about actual history???
I'm amazed and greatly pleased.
Please do go on. I'll even promise to tone down my fucking language in the spirit of civil discourse.
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Old April 3rd, 2018, 08:15 AM   #50
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The story of Lawrence of Arabia (T.E. Lawrence) is fascinating. Many of the problems we face in the mid-east today are a direct result of the betrayal by the Allies, primarily the British and French, of the native peoples of the region as soon as the Ottoman Empire was crushed.
Yah, he was a driven man - so were his parents. I think he was outraged by the British machinations in the Middle East, carving up the former Ottoman Empire like so much roast beef. (As I recall, Lawrence refused a knighthood - Order of the British Empire - in consequence. It wasn't a happy life, by any means. As a youngster, Lawrence had dreams of achieving renown & knighthood.)
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