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Old July 11th, 2018, 09:07 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deGanis View Post
However, none of that is relevant, because as the first article shows, US public opinion had swung towards engagement long before the events of December 41.
To deGanis: Stop cluttering up my thread with Socialist/Communist talking points.

I find it interesting that today’s liberals take credit for winning WWII because it saved Communism in the Soviet Union. Prior to Hitler invading the Soviet Union they were quite content with Stalin and Hitler dividing Europe between them.


The Hitler-Stalin Pact

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-...er-stalin-pact
American Communists went berserk, demanding a second front after Hitler’s tore up the non-aggression pact.

After Hitler made the mistake of declaring war on the U.S. a few days after Pearl Harbor every Communist effort in this country —— political pressure, media and Hollywood propaganda, etc. —— were focused on bullying FDR into establishing a second front.


In November, 1943, Joseph Stalin, Winston Churchill and Franklin D. Roosevelt met together in Teheran, Iran, to discuss military strategy and post-war Europe. Ever since the Soviet Union had entered the war, Stalin had been demanding that the Allies open-up a second front in Europe. Churchill and Roosevelt argued that any attempt to land troops in Western Europe would result in heavy casualties. Until the Soviet's victory at Stalingrad in January, 1943, Stalin had feared that without a second front, Germany would defeat them.

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Had Hitler never double-crossed Stalin the Soviet Union would have remained neutral for the duration. As far as Stalin was concerned in 1939 Hitler could have the rest of Europe so long as he stayed out of those countries the Soviets coveted. Stalin knew he could not defeat Germany anyway; so he thought he got a good deal in the Soviet-Nazi Non-Aggression Pact. Stalin was correct in 1939. Had the war been fought between Germany and the Soviet Union alone Germany would have won hands down.

American Communists/Socialists only began screaming for a second front after“Operation Barbarossa.” Prior to Hitler’s double-cross American Communists wanted no part of the war in Europe. They changed their minds fasted than greased lightning after Hitler invaded their beloved Soviet Union.

Had Hitler not stuck it to Old Joe every American Socialist/Communist would have been conscientious objectors throughout WWII. Many of those Communist supporters came out of the woodwork to demonstrate for Communism during the Vietnam War.


Quote:
Originally Posted by deGanis View Post
If you would like to be sensible, then carry on the debate
To deGanis: There has never been a debate. Responding to your Socialist/Communist view of events gave me an opportunity to post a few facts so younger Americans can make up their minds as to which of us got it right.
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Old July 11th, 2018, 10:04 AM   #12
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Apology accepted.

You do realise this is all slipping away from you, don’t you? Any neutral reading this will detect that as each of your points is refuted, you just side step and fire another salvo, hoping to distract from the fact that you have yet to make a factually supported ‘hit’.

If all you have to say in response to the legitimate sources I posted is that it is socialist/communist talking points (still conflating I note), then your credibility is in free fall.

So it was communists who turned 70 + % of the US population into supporters of the British struggle against nazism? Right. Would this also be at the time before operation Barbarossa when Britain wasn’t on the side of the Soviet Union? How easily manipulated we all must have been back then!

Maybe American communists would have wished the US to stay out of the war before Hitler attacked Stalin. After all communists believe in the Comintern and the unity of all workers. As socialists are not the same as communists (!!) then they wouldn’t feel the same and therefore are unlikely to have felt inhibited. Socialists, being motivated by social justice would have seen nazism as an existential threat to democracy and therefore I suspect they were in those data, pre December (and May) 1941!

Sadly, you are correct, there is no debate. Very disappointing. Do you want to stay on one theme and debate, or do you wish to sidestep every objection and hurl personal insults?
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Old July 13th, 2018, 03:35 PM   #13
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It should be noted that in May 1940 when it was clear that France was beaten and Halifax was urging Churchill to discuss peace terms with German, Churchill had the full backing of Labour, who were Democratic Socialists, and the Liberal party to continue the war against the Nazis.
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