About the near-uselessness of central government

Jun 2012
41,958
15,181
Barsoom
Exactly, you support my premise completely with your data.

Obamacare is the lowest level of government intervention, while it has slowed the pace of cost increases, nothing can stop price increases, the better medicine works the more it costs.
But the cost of the insurance gets reduced as you go from strictly private to mandated, to single payer, to complete government run health care.
Obamacare is the highest level of government intervention. It had affected everyone. The cost has increased faster under Obamacare than before Obamacare, and that has been pointed out numerous times.
 
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Dec 2013
33,811
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Beware of watermelons
Obamacare is the highest level of government intervention. It had affected everyone. The cost has increased faster under Obamacare than before Obamacare, and that has been pointed out numerous times.
also obamacare is NOT the begining of government intervention in healthcare and is the number one reason for the dramatic price jumps.

fail goober
 
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Jun 2012
41,958
15,181
Barsoom
also obamacare is NOT the begining of government intervention in healthcare and is the number one reason for the dramatic price jumps.

fail goober
Healthcare costs hit $10,000 per person for the first time in history in 2015 at $3.2 trillion dollars.
 
Sep 2015
306
192
South Carolina, USA
You must have schools and taxes to pay for them and research and ways of checking to be sure everything is done right. There must be medications and equipment and transporting of resources to make both, and transporting the products back out to distributors. There must be clinics and hospital, and trained people to work in them. This does not happen without a way to organize all this, and that is what government is.
Yes, but like I said, you don't need a state to organize all that. In a stateless society healthcare could be managed by an open organization that accumulates information on what the population needs and plans how to serve them most effectively. Said health services would perform the same legitimate functions organizations like the NHS do, they just won't be tied together by any central authority and thus will not comprise a state in the traditional sense.
 
Sep 2015
306
192
South Carolina, USA
This is looking similar to another conservation we had. Nothing wrong with that I guess, but note that wasn't the intention of this thread. Here I'm not necessarily arguing for communism, I'm just pointing out the overrated usefulness of states. In that regard I'm sort of playing devil's advocate for sabcat's proposed system too in some ways.

Who would organize it and run it?
People just get together and organize stuff. It isn't such a difficult thing really.

How much would they be paid?
Some ancoms advocate labour-cheques, money, or immediately eliminating any such exchanges. If I had to choose one I'd take the tickets based on work time.

Where would the money and resources to deliver it come from?
People work, and the results of said work are organized as usual. See below.

I completely disagree with your statement that people can govern themselves horizontally just fine unless there is a formal system that has enforcement.
States don't have a monopoly on organization. Hospitals, goods factories, and even a military could all function as they do today without having to answer to a single authority. There's no reason to believe otherwise.

And you can pretty it up by calling it a council or whatever you choose but it will still be a government.
No, really. I must again insist organization is possible without centralization. Read up on anarchist Catalonia if you want. It was messy but they still managed to make society operate under the control of a collection of worker's councils and unions, during a war no less.
 

RNG

Forum Staff
Apr 2013
40,311
28,184
La La Land North
No, really. I must again insist organization is possible without centralization. Read up on anarchist Catalonia if you want. It was messy but they still managed to make society operate under the control of a collection of worker's councils and unions, during a war no less.
For a whole 3 years.
 
Sep 2015
306
192
South Carolina, USA
For a whole 3 years.
And that's why I'm not an anarchist. But that was the result of destruction by outside forces, you seemed to be arguing a stateless society couldn't run itself properly and that's what I was trying to refute.
 
Jul 2014
15,665
9,765
massachusetts
Obamacare is the highest level of government intervention. It had affected everyone. The cost has increased faster under Obamacare than before Obamacare, and that has been pointed out numerous times.
Jimmy,
You're entitled to your own opinion.
But not your own facts.

Just another topic for you to demonstrate your lack of understanding...
 
Jul 2014
15,665
9,765
massachusetts
In human populations, everything is organized quite well until the population hits 150, and then the natural organization that evolved in the species is inadequate.
Here is where mythology is useful to organize larger groups.

There are three principal myths that organize the group, Money, Country and Religion.

Anarchists try to imagine a society without government, but that never happens for very long, it's an unsustainable state, with a very short half life.

Without the mythology of money and country (government) there can be no economy beyond hunter gatherer with modest agriculture.
And no one seriously wants to live in anarchy, they just pretend to, like a role playing game, they don't want to give up their life in this society, which is pretty good.
I'm enjoying the heck out of being alive in this society at this time, it's way better than anytime in the past, but not as good as tomorrow, but I can try to live long and spend more time in the future...