Becoming human

Jun 2018
434
34
United States
#51
Always nice to know we Christians cannot ever post our thoughts anywhere. As soon as you atheists start losing he debate, the moderator saves you by deleting posts and then accuses me of threatening people. With this said I'm done here. Enjoy the hate, bigotry. Too many radical and arrogant people here for my taste. This forum is a ghost town anyway and I can see why.
 
Feb 2014
2,499
1,153
Oregon
#53
Would you please sit with me and help me write the book I am working on? I am holding a piece of information that others, who are important to explaining our situation, do not have. I am sure if I made this information available to those who care, our shared consciousness would improve in quotum leaps.

Not many in this forum are interesting in exploring what makes as we are and what we think the ideal human potential is. While on the other hand, I am picking up so much new information that radically reshapes what I think, I am forced to constantly rewrite my explanation of our reality and seem to get further away from completing the book instead of closer to completing it.

Ideally, we all work together on puzzling out what is so, and what we want, and how to get there from here. But as I repeatedly say in the workshops I facilitate, before we can know what we want to change we need to be aware of what we are doing now, and therefore, what we might do differently to get the desired results.

I just read, our phenomenal technological success that has doubled our life expectancy and greatly improved our standard of living for millions of people, is the result of Europe's constant conflicts and competitiveness, whereas, China, succeeded in unifying the people in a very large region of the world, and went for security and stability and that security and stability is China's success! China succeeded where Europe and Christianity, failed, but it is the West that succeeded materially and technologically, and then the expansion of the West destroyed China's success. Now it is China's success, a very large population, that makes material and technological success vitally important to China.

It is understanding the human potential and limits and the ups and downs of civilizations, and a new way of having economic order, that is vital in an age of nuclear weapons and global warming and exhausted mineral resources and increasing human populations. We can not continue to resolve our conflicts and competition for resources and markets as we have in the past. We will self-destruct if we do not figure out a better way.

AND THANK YOU IMAGINE THAT FOR MAKING THIS DISCUSSION POSSIBLE BY EXERCISING YOUR MODERATION POWERS. We could not have the necessary discussion if the thread was hijacked by religious prophesizing. I have been puzzling and puzzling in my head what we can do about the damage religion causes in our thinking processing. As long as people rely on holy books instead of secular reasoning, we will never develop the reasoning essential to getting past this very dangerous time on earth, and yet this is also a time of great hope. Thank you for making this discussion possible.
 
Nov 2013
2,257
929
NM
#54
No man is an island

Always nice to know we Christians cannot ever post our thoughts anywhere. As soon as you atheists start losing he debate, the moderator saves you by deleting posts and then accuses me of threatening people. With this said I'm done here. Enjoy the hate, bigotry. Too many radical and arrogant people here for my taste. This forum is a ghost town anyway and I can see why.
There are lots of fora where Christians & other believers can post to their heart's content, & I would think that you'll get a better reception on some of those sites. The big wall of text approach wasn't working here anyway - & I don't know that everyone else here is an atheist. I've never gotten that feeling, anyway.

& do atheists need saving? & if so, From what? It is a puzzle, & I suppose we'll just have to muddle through by ourselves & try to address the issues.
 
Feb 2014
2,499
1,153
Oregon
#55
Always nice to know we Christians cannot ever post our thoughts anywhere. As soon as you atheists start losing he debate, the moderator saves you by deleting posts and then accuses me of threatening people. With this said I'm done here. Enjoy the hate, bigotry. Too many radical and arrogant people here for my taste. This forum is a ghost town anyway and I can see why.

Excuse me, there is a place for Christians to post in the forum.

Religion (11 Viewing)
For discussion about belief systems, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to spirituality and moral values
Atheism Buddhism
Christianity Hinduism
Islam Mormonism
Other Religions

But this is not the place to discuss your religion, and repeatedly doing so derails the thread, because effectively religion is anti-reasoning. Your use of quotes from your holy book are excellent for religious debates, but they have nothing to do with the logic required in this thread.

I am not an Atheist. Our failure to have religious agree is not one of us believes in a god and the other does not. It is the nature of your god that I find unbelievable. Your god is as humanized as Zeus was and neither one of them are believable to me.

The mythology of the Greek gods was completely changed when the Greeks developed a better system of logic. A system of logic that doesn't hold things happen because the gods make it happen, but a system of logic that is more useful in discovering the laws of nature. That logic is essential to this thread.

Telling me the story of Adam and Eve is not explaining how a god made humans. I know you think it is but there is nothing in the story that can be tested and developed into a scientific explanation of how a god created a human. Your understanding of logic does not work in a thread that requires a more scientific understanding of logic. A story that cannot be proven is just a story. The problem is not simply that you worship a god like Zeus, made in the image of man, but your lack of understanding the logic required in a secular thread.

Our understanding of evolution has evolved and can be tested and verified. Your stories are just stories lacking the necessary logic, testing, and vericiation.
 
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Feb 2014
2,499
1,153
Oregon
#56
There are lots of fora where Christians & other believers can post to their heart's content, & I would think that you'll get a better reception on some of those sites. The big wall of text approach wasn't working here anyway - & I don't know that everyone else here is an atheist. I've never gotten that feeling, anyway.

& do atheists need saving? & if so, From what? It is a puzzle, & I suppose we'll just have to muddle through by ourselves & try to address the issues.
Yes, atheists, like all humans, need saving. :-D That is the subject of this thread.

The difference we have with Doughboy is answering the questions of why and how is anyone saved? I much prefer the questions and answers science gives us to the questions and answers religion gives us. We are born only with the potential to be functional humans and some people are born with brain defects that prevent them from being fully functional humans. Others will not become fully functional humans because their early life experiences prevent them from becoming fully functional humans. We are born with a lot of neurons and areas of the brain that are used will develop, while areas that are not used atrophy and die, resulting in a human who will never be able to develop that particular brain function, such as understanding the complexity of language, or being able to have normal emotions and bond with others.

If we grow up with a developing conscience capable of understanding another point of view, or capable of experiencing bonding with others, depends very much on early childhood experiences. The subject of the thread is how do we become human how do we become full socially functional humans. I think we have agreed any child born of human parents is human, but not all of them become socially functional. I will add to that, being saved is learning to be a fully, socially functional human being, and unfortunately, many children are not born into the circumstances that give them that opportunity, and marginalizing people or putting them into prison, with zero understanding of the disadvantages that challenge them, is a terrible ignorance promoted by Christianity.

I also think we all can all agree, becoming a Christian does not assure a person will be a decent human being. There is no miracle that makes a person pure of racism or bigotry, or capable of empathizing and understanding.
 
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Likes: 1 person
Nov 2013
2,257
929
NM
#57
General history, Western Civ.



I just finished a History of Civilization, I'll post more on it shortly.
Civilization : a new history of the Western world / Roger Osborne, c2006, Pegasus Books, 909.0982 Osbo.

Subjects
• Civilization, Western -- History.

Notes
• In the beginning : prehistory and illiterate societies -- A torrent of words : change and custom in classical Greece -- The birth of abstraction : Plato, Aristotle, and the rational mind -- The universal civilization : Rome and the barbarians -- Augustine's vision of Christianity : from rebel sect to universal faith -- Religion as civilization : the establishment of Western Christendom -- Another way of living : the medieval town and communal life -- Art as civilization : wealth, power, and innovation in the Italian Renaissance -- The search for the Christian life : the European Reformation as a new beginning -- Kings, armies, and nations : the rise of the military state -- Us and them : colonization and slavery -- The rational individual : theory and practice in making society -- Enlightenment and revolution : politics and reason in France and America -- Industrialization and nationalism : British dominance and the ideology of freedom -- From rural colonies to industrial continent : the making of modern America -- Towards the abyss : technology, ideology, apocalypse -- The end of civilization : Depression, extremism, and genocide in Europe, America, and Asia -- The post-war world : from social cohesion to global marketplace.

Length
• xi, 532 pages, [16] pages of plates : maps, list of illustrations, list of maps, index, references – general works, recent books on topics, in rough chronological order of period covered, readings by chapter

(My emphasis)

A sweeping history of West Civ., apparently written in response to the West's reaction to 09/11. A pleasure to read. Excellent information, nicely organized.
 
Feb 2014
2,499
1,153
Oregon
#58
For this thread and in response to the book Civilization : a new history of the Western world, Why would religion lead to civilizations and "technology, ideology, apocalypse -- The end of civilization"?

A book written when the US mobilized for the first war against Germany, spoke of the German social organization as being impersonal and crushing individual liberty and power. That German organization was called a mechanical society. Then the US imitated Germany in every significant way. Is there something we should know about humans to avoid the end of civilization?
 
Nov 2013
2,257
929
NM
#59
An Rx for melancholy

For this thread and in response to the book Civilization : a new history of the Western world, Why would religion lead to civilizations and "technology, ideology, apocalypse -- The end of civilization"?

A book written when the US mobilized for the first war against Germany, spoke of the German social organization as being impersonal and crushing individual liberty and power. That German organization was called a mechanical society. Then the US imitated Germany in every significant way. Is there something we should know about humans to avoid the end of civilization?
Not all religions lead to civilizations. The religions that break on through to writing - to recording their oral traditions, prayers, histories - those are the ones that are likeliest to found civilizations. Whether the arc of civilization runs on to the end of everything - I'm not sure that's the case. China was stable & civilized for a very long time - but they didn't build on the technology they'd developed, & in fact they called their ocean-going fleets home & destroyed the ships & withdrew the shipbuilding technology. For their own reasons, I'm sure - but it was a mistake in terms of World politics - it left China vulnerable to whoever had the ships & the manpower & technology to impose their will on China.

The arc of a civilization may simply depend on the religion it forms around - Christianity became a proselytizing religion - & so went out into the World & tried to civilize it. The civilize part, I think, suffered considerably in comparison to the wealth & power attendant upon successful conquest - booty, slaves, lands, titles, & exaltation back in the home court. But @ least in theory, that proselytizing role was present. Poorly executed, often enough - but @ least aspirational. Some people took it seriously enough, that we've progressed as far as we have.

Can we carry out the proselytizing mission? If not, or we're unwilling to do so, what does our culture dedicate itself to in place of that mission? That's the question we need to consider - & lies @ the heart of a lot of our psychological/spiritual malaise in the West. We have all these means - What do we want to accomplish with them?
 
Likes: 1 person
Dec 2017
1,693
830
USA
#60
Are we born humans or do we learn to be humans?

If we learn to be human's what do we have to learn to be humans?

Is our ability to learn unlimited or can we loose the ability to learn?

Here is a story of science and referral children.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cymZq1VblU0
@Athena

This is a very fascinating question, Athena--and it is one in which Philosophers and Cognitive Scientists wrestle with tremendously. The Philosopher Dan Dennett argues that we "learn to be human"--as if we were to meet a child that was 100% cut off from human contact, it likely would have an undeveloped mind that is arguably not at "human level consciousness". Personally, I am not quite sure I agree entirely with his position, though I do see the angle he is approaching from.
 

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