Case against Islam

Apr 2014
3,170
1,364
redacted
#91
Exactly. As most Christians happily ignore the teachings of Jesus The Christ, at least so far as tolerance, mercy and charity goes, most Muslims happily ignore the more outrageous and violent of the words of the Phrophet Mohommad.
Disagreed on "most" Christians. Most Christians aren't on this forum and mind their own business because they recognize things like Free Will and Matthew 7:1. OTOH, most of those on this forum who proudly claim to be Christians don't act like it IMHO. Agreed on most Muslims.
 
Likes: Hollywood
Dec 2015
15,861
14,764
Arizona
#92
Define "evil".

Personally, I define it as authoritarian assholes who seek to demand others think just like them, believe just like them and to do just like them. No free agency, no free will. Evil is fear-mongering and anti-freedom.
Bob, I'm going to bottle that post and sell it.....over and over. The phrase "authoritarian assholes" sums it up beautifully and succinctly. No matter what the topic, our RW Trumper Thumpers KNOW BEST--KNOW MORE--are smarter, brighter, shrewder, & brainier than all others. How do I know? Because they tell us.
They know more about America's judicial system, immigration system, the legislative system--our freedoms (or lack of)---our tax system--our healthcare, our religion, our economy, our public schools, our climate weather....well, you get the gist.
It's astounding, isn't it? There's nothing they DO NOT KNOW. How often (in our debates) do you read "I don't know much about _________" but..........?? But naturally, they KNOW MORE because they follow The Donald's example.
FOOLS. Every. Single. One.
AND I'm guessing they are all Christians.
 
Apr 2014
3,170
1,364
redacted
#93
Bob, I'm going to bottle that post and sell it.....over and over. The phrase "authoritarian assholes" sums it up beautifully and succinctly. No matter what the topic, our RW Trumper Thumpers KNOW BEST--KNOW MORE--are smarter, brighter, shrewder, & brainier than all others. How do I know? Because they tell us.
They know more about America's judicial system, immigration system, the legislative system--our freedoms (or lack of)---our tax system--our healthcare, our religion, our economy, our public schools, our climate weather....well, you get the gist.
It's astounding, isn't it? There's nothing they DO NOT KNOW. How often (in our debates) do you read "I don't know much about _________" but..........?? But naturally, they KNOW MORE because they follow The Donald's example.
FOOLS. Every. Single. One.
AND I'm guessing they are all Christians.
Feel free to do so, Clara, but it applies to those who seek to impose their will against anyone who disagrees with them be they Left or Right.
 
Oct 2010
66,870
26,961
Colorado
#94
Over What are we - the US, Western Civilization in general - supposed to do with Islam? We should continue to treat with the Islamic countries & the countries with substantial Islamic populations, of course. We can hardly avoid it - Europe & Japan & China will still need POL, so it's just Realpolitik to treat with Islam. It would be helpful to pry the Wahhabis out of Saudi Arabia - SA has a lot of petrodollars still sloshing around in their treasury, & they bankroll the Wahhabis in order to prop up their hold on the country. Wahhabi is one of the more radical Islamic theologies - & totally unfitted (my opinion) for life in the actual World. & using SA money, the Wahhabis are building mosques, training mullahs, & publishing & fomenting far-gone radical Islamic theology as normal Islamic worldview.

Mainly, we should engage the Islamic countries & encourage their moderates. There was a time when Islamic nationalists looked to the US as a model of how a modern nation should run; we should aim to be that model again. Which means we need to fix our internal politics - we need enlightened government & diplomacy to work long-term with Islam. The ever-revolving & -accelerating doors @ the White House & State Department are not helping us @ all to manage our complicated & long-standing relationships with the Islamic world.
I agree with that long game, strategic, world view. Trading with nations, even enemies, traditionally has been a successful tactic.

Moving to the day-to-day, a radical element exists within Islam wherever Islam exists. This is fact. What, if anything, do we do about that fact? Are Muslims due extra scrutiny because they're Muslims.

I got off a plane in Frankfurt from Kiev. Maybe 20 really "Arab-looking" people were on the flight. Maybe 10 Hasidic Jews were on board, too. The German profile, I learned. Passports were checked leaving the plane. Some of the Arabs were in front of me, undergoing intense scrutiny. When I got to the officer, seriously an Aryan Nation poster man, he took my passport with a big smile, opened it, closed it and handed it back to me. I said, "Guten tag." His smile got a little bigger.

The same was true going to NYC. All the Arabs and Hasidic Jews were flying through. Our baggage was checked out and then checked in. The German custom agents literally unpacked their suitcases, and left them that way. My bag wasn't, wasn't even opened.

Is there some median between doing nothing, or the German model? Maybe there isn't.
 
Dec 2016
5,076
2,605
Canada
#95
I will list the grievances I have against Islam.

1. Religion of peace? Although most Muslims live peaceably, there is no denying that Islamic countries lead the world in terrorism

The Ten Countries Most Affected By Terrorism
blah blah blah blah blah
I have the same objection to this horseshit that I have against Stephen Pinker's "proofs" that ...everything's okay.....the world's becoming less and less violent..............
Well, garbage in/garbage out! "Terrorism" by its essence is asymmetrical, unapproved violence that only differs from state-sanctioned violence meted out by military's and police forces in that our leaders declare 'this violence is for the good of us all' while 'that violence is a threat to our existence.' Put it all out on the table....the Christian empires and colonialists who slaughtered millions while 'christianizing' the world.

I came across an interview with one of Islamophobia's main boogeyman - Juan Cole by Peter Scheer about a month ago. The University of Michigan professor mentioned writing a new book about the Quran and the neverending battle by Muslim scholars to try to set the record straight on a few claims made by Islam haters that have come up since the Cold War turned into the War on Terror:

Cole also deconstructs one of the more harmful misconceptions about Islam, namely that it’s inherently hostile to Judaism. “The Qur’an is remarkably pro-Jewish,” he observes. “It talks about Jews, frankly, as God’s chosen people; it defends synagogues from attack. And toward the end of the book, it says that Muslims may intermarry with Jews and Christians, and may have communal meals with them. So you know sociologists define ethnicity as having to do with who you will marry and who you won’t; people with a particular ethnicity only marry into that ethnicity. But the Qur’an is creating kind of an ethnicity of Abrahamians, of people who follow the one God, and [that] includes Jews.”​
Finally, the University of Michigan history professor argues that despite the violence from which the Qu’ran and early Islam emerged, the faith offers a distinctly harmonious vision of humanity. Cole concludes: “I would argue that what Muhammad wished for was to expand that zone of peace that he conceived in Mecca to encompass the whole world.”​
https://www.truthdig.com/articles/the-west-has-islam-dangerously-wrong/

Perhaps the most damning indictment against Mohammad being a prophet is, he simply does not fit the mold. Jesus said that the blood of the prophets were on the heads of the people. That's right, Biblically, the prophets of God were routinely oppressed and murdered, including Jesus. Mohammad stands in stark contrast as a warlord.
From what I know of that time in the Arabian Peninsula, it seems obvious that Islam arose and became a successful religion not because of terror or violence...that might force people into submission, but as the Catholic Church always suspected of Jewish 'conversos' people cannot be forced to believe things that they find wrong or revolting, and will continue their religious practices in secret if they have to!

Instead, it seems far more likely that the apparent chaos and violence among competing warlords over trade routes, gold and valuable commodities, would provide anyone looking for a system to bring people together into a single, unified system some important advantages. The rest can be argued about...and it is. I care little or nothing about Islamic doctrine any more than I do about Christian doctrine! I am focused on how practicioners of different religions practice what they preach....or fail to do so! Comparing the dynamics between west vs east, it becomes obvious that the main reason why we have become exposed to anti-Islamic talk and demands for Islam to "moderate" etc., is because the west...The American Empire in particular, has seen Islamic nations and cultures as standing in the way of "American values." And is willing to support the absolute worst Muslim despots in the ME, as long as they keep the oil flowing cheaply to western markets and are more than willing to sell SA whatever lethal armaments they desire to suppress their own and nearby populations.

What America and the west fears most is that Islam spurred some reform..quasi-Marxist movements in the 20th century...similar to what Liberation Theology did to Christianity in the west, and THAT is what they are most afraid of! Not the occasional terrorist attack and certainly not Muslim allies beheading innocent people for the flimsiest of excuses!
 
Oct 2010
66,870
26,961
Colorado
#96
The Bible says adulterers are to be executed as are anyone breaking most of the laws of the Ten Commandments yet most Christians ignore such "laws". Why do you think Islam is different?

What is your proposed final solution for the Muslim problem?
The Old Testament does command that. The NT says:

"...Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."

Quite a difference, yes? Day and night.

Odd terminology, final solution, though the intent is clear. I don't have one. What's your final solution?
 
Mar 2019
133
25
New Hampshire
#97
I have the same objection to this horseshit that I have against Stephen Pinker's "proofs" that ...everything's okay.....the world's becoming less and less violent..............
Well, garbage in/garbage out! "Terrorism" by its essence is asymmetrical, unapproved violence that only differs from state-sanctioned violence meted out by military's and police forces in that our leaders declare 'this violence is for the good of us all' while 'that violence is a threat to our existence.' Put it all out on the table....the Christian empires and colonialists who slaughtered millions while 'christianizing' the world.

I came across an interview with one of Islamophobia's main boogeyman - Juan Cole by Peter Scheer about a month ago. The University of Michigan professor mentioned writing a new book about the Quran and the neverending battle by Muslim scholars to try to set the record straight on a few claims made by Islam haters that have come up since the Cold War turned into the War on Terror:

Cole also deconstructs one of the more harmful misconceptions about Islam, namely that it’s inherently hostile to Judaism. “The Qur’an is remarkably pro-Jewish,” he observes. “It talks about Jews, frankly, as God’s chosen people; it defends synagogues from attack. And toward the end of the book, it says that Muslims may intermarry with Jews and Christians, and may have communal meals with them. So you know sociologists define ethnicity as having to do with who you will marry and who you won’t; people with a particular ethnicity only marry into that ethnicity. But the Qur’an is creating kind of an ethnicity of Abrahamians, of people who follow the one God, and [that] includes Jews.”​
Finally, the University of Michigan history professor argues that despite the violence from which the Qu’ran and early Islam emerged, the faith offers a distinctly harmonious vision of humanity. Cole concludes: “I would argue that what Muhammad wished for was to expand that zone of peace that he conceived in Mecca to encompass the whole world.”​
https://www.truthdig.com/articles/the-west-has-islam-dangerously-wrong/


From what I know of that time in the Arabian Peninsula, it seems obvious that Islam arose and became a successful religion not because of terror or violence...that might force people into submission, but as the Catholic Church always suspected of Jewish 'conversos' people cannot be forced to believe things that they find wrong or revolting, and will continue their religious practices in secret if they have to!

Instead, it seems far more likely that the apparent chaos and violence among competing warlords over trade routes, gold and valuable commodities, would provide anyone looking for a system to bring people together into a single, unified system some important advantages. The rest can be argued about...and it is. I care little or nothing about Islamic doctrine any more than I do about Christian doctrine! I am focused on how practicioners of different religions practice what they preach....or fail to do so! Comparing the dynamics between west vs east, it becomes obvious that the main reason why we have become exposed to anti-Islamic talk and demands for Islam to "moderate" etc., is because the west...The American Empire in particular, has seen Islamic nations and cultures as standing in the way of "American values." And is willing to support the absolute worst Muslim despots in the ME, as long as they keep the oil flowing cheaply to western markets and are more than willing to sell SA whatever lethal armaments they desire to suppress their own and nearby populations.

What America and the west fears most is that Islam spurred some reform..quasi-Marxist movements in the 20th century...similar to what Liberation Theology did to Christianity in the west, and THAT is what they are most afraid of! Not the occasional terrorist attack and certainly not Muslim allies beheading innocent people for the flimsiest of excuses!
You should win a prize for the post loaded with the most bullshit ever posted on a political forum.
 
Feb 2019
1,417
317
here and there
#98
I have the same objection to this horseshit that I have against Stephen Pinker's "proofs" that ...everything's okay.....the world's becoming less and less violent..............
Well, garbage in/garbage out! "Terrorism" by its essence is asymmetrical, unapproved violence that only differs from state-sanctioned violence meted out by military's and police forces in that our leaders declare 'this violence is for the good of us all' while 'that violence is a threat to our existence.' Put it all out on the table....the Christian empires and colonialists who slaughtered millions while 'christianizing' the world.

I came across an interview with one of Islamophobia's main boogeyman - Juan Cole by Peter Scheer about a month ago. The University of Michigan professor mentioned writing a new book about the Quran and the neverending battle by Muslim scholars to try to set the record straight on a few claims made by Islam haters that have come up since the Cold War turned into the War on Terror:

Cole also deconstructs one of the more harmful misconceptions about Islam, namely that it’s inherently hostile to Judaism. “The Qur’an is remarkably pro-Jewish,” he observes. “It talks about Jews, frankly, as God’s chosen people; it defends synagogues from attack. And toward the end of the book, it says that Muslims may intermarry with Jews and Christians, and may have communal meals with them. So you know sociologists define ethnicity as having to do with who you will marry and who you won’t; people with a particular ethnicity only marry into that ethnicity. But the Qur’an is creating kind of an ethnicity of Abrahamians, of people who follow the one God, and [that] includes Jews.”​
Finally, the University of Michigan history professor argues that despite the violence from which the Qu’ran and early Islam emerged, the faith offers a distinctly harmonious vision of humanity. Cole concludes: “I would argue that what Muhammad wished for was to expand that zone of peace that he conceived in Mecca to encompass the whole world.”​
https://www.truthdig.com/articles/the-west-has-islam-dangerously-wrong/


From what I know of that time in the Arabian Peninsula, it seems obvious that Islam arose and became a successful religion not because of terror or violence...that might force people into submission, but as the Catholic Church always suspected of Jewish 'conversos' people cannot be forced to believe things that they find wrong or revolting, and will continue their religious practices in secret if they have to!

Instead, it seems far more likely that the apparent chaos and violence among competing warlords over trade routes, gold and valuable commodities, would provide anyone looking for a system to bring people together into a single, unified system some important advantages. The rest can be argued about...and it is. I care little or nothing about Islamic doctrine any more than I do about Christian doctrine! I am focused on how practicioners of different religions practice what they preach....or fail to do so! Comparing the dynamics between west vs east, it becomes obvious that the main reason why we have become exposed to anti-Islamic talk and demands for Islam to "moderate" etc., is because the west...The American Empire in particular, has seen Islamic nations and cultures as standing in the way of "American values." And is willing to support the absolute worst Muslim despots in the ME, as long as they keep the oil flowing cheaply to western markets and are more than willing to sell SA whatever lethal armaments they desire to suppress their own and nearby populations.

What America and the west fears most is that Islam spurred some reform..quasi-Marxist movements in the 20th century...similar to what Liberation Theology did to Christianity in the west, and THAT is what they are most afraid of! Not the occasional terrorist attack and certainly not Muslim allies beheading innocent people for the flimsiest of excuses!
I have yet to have any rebuttal about the data I posted regarding Islamic countries harboring the most violence and terrorism in the world.

Ignore it if you like.
 
Nov 2013
2,440
1,035
NM
#99
I agree with that long game, strategic, world view. Trading with nations, even enemies, traditionally has been a successful tactic.

Moving to the day-to-day, a radical element exists within Islam wherever Islam exists. This is fact. What, if anything, do we do about that fact? Are Muslims due extra scrutiny because they're Muslims.

...

Is there some median between doing nothing, or the German model? Maybe there isn't.
I assume that German customs/border control is touchy because of the apparent exodus-level immigration from Syria, Iraq, Egypt - wherever radical Islamic politics were in play. & Germany is still recovering from the reunification of E. & W. Germany - that will probably play out for another few decades - the Stasi were great believers in sleeper agents. Plus the W. German experience with the Baader-Meinhof (sp?) Gang, & other similar irredentist political groups over the years. W. Germany has had long experience with Turkish guest workers - that status is up the air; the German economy may still need the workers, but the politics between the West (NATO), Germany & Turkey are becoming more & more strained.

I would think that the US would be better served by some medium level of inspection/border control - raised if there is a reason to do so (intel chatter on social media, & web sites, etc.), perhaps relaxed when possible & there are no indications of immediate issues. One reason that the US seems to have better results from our immigration/integration efforts - we're not typically hidebound & determined to enforce our rules, no matter how arbitrary or contrary to facts on the ground they may be.

Profiling in terms of how people look - isn't as useful as it might be. There are converts to Islam who don't look Islamic (Arab, Persian, etc.), & therefore can blend in more easily with Caucasians & other groups. It might be more reasonable to target travelers for further inspection if they show recent travel to/from countries with active radical Islamic groups.
 
Oct 2010
66,870
26,961
Colorado
I assume that German customs/border control is touchy because of the apparent exodus-level immigration from Syria, Iraq, Egypt - wherever radical Islamic politics were in play. & Germany is still recovering from the reunification of E. & W. Germany - that will probably play out for another few decades - the Stasi were great believers in sleeper agents. Plus the W. German experience with the Baader-Meinhof (sp?) Gang, & other similar irredentist political groups over the years. W. Germany has had long experience with Turkish guest workers - that status is up the air; the German economy may still need the workers, but the politics between the West (NATO), Germany & Turkey are becoming more & more strained.

I would think that the US would be better served by some medium level of inspection/border control - raised if there is a reason to do so (intel chatter on social media, & web sites, etc.), perhaps relaxed when possible & there are no indications of immediate issues. One reason that the US seems to have better results from our immigration/integration efforts - we're not typically hidebound & determined to enforce our rules, no matter how arbitrary or contrary to facts on the ground they may be.

Profiling in terms of how people look - isn't as useful as it might be. There are converts to Islam who don't look Islamic (Arab, Persian, etc.), & therefore can blend in more easily with Caucasians & other groups. It might be more reasonable to target travelers for further inspection if they show recent travel to/from countries with active radical Islamic groups.
Agreed.

That experience occurred in 2012. Side note: The landing was "the" craziest of my life, powerful side wind, three bounces. Really had my attention. :freeze: