Case against Islam

Dec 2018
5,973
1,594
New England
However, exactly how many of those countries actually HAVE the death penality for leaving Islam?
How many that DO have it apply it?
How many people in those 5 listed countries have actually beem executed for leaving islam, let's say over the past 10 years UNDER THAT LAW?

In other words, what you claim to support does not mean jack shit when it comes to the realoty of law and it's enforcement.
Ah, no Hollywood. It's a measure of popular sentiment in those Islamic countries, and it's not my claim. It's the work product from one of the world's most reputable pollsters. I realize their data doesn't fit your world view, but you're going to need a strong effort than that to discredit it.
 
Dec 2014
28,235
15,845
Memphis, Tn.
You haven't proved that. You made the assertion. Prove it.

Truly, it doesn't matter how often it's acted upon. The survey wasn't of governments. It was of the people. The people believe it. That's what matters.
I can prove it easily.
Probably as many conservative Christians (76%) SUPPORT the idea that abortion for any reason should be illegal throughout our country as do Pakistanians that SUPPORT the death penality for leaving Islam.
However, the LAW says it IS legal so their support does not mean jack shit.
Now, perhaps that support will result in a change of the laws at some point in the future, they have been trying for 40 + years.
Time will tell.

Anyone have an actual answer to the questions I posed?
 

imaginethat

Forum Staff
Oct 2010
70,740
30,984
Colorado
What I could find quickly:

As of 2014, laws in various Muslim-majority countries prescribed for the apostate (Arabic: مرتد‎ murtadd) sentences ranging from execution to a prison term to no punishment.[31][32] Sharia courts in some countries use civil code to void the Muslim apostate's marriage and to deny child-custody rights as well as inheritance rights.[33] In the years 1985-2006, three governments executed four individuals for apostasy from Islam: "one in Sudan in 1985; two in Iran, in 1989 and 1998; and one in Saudi Arabia in 1992."[25] Twenty-three Muslim-majority countries, as of 2013, additionally covered apostasy from Islam through their criminal laws.[34] The Tunisian Constitution of 2014 stipulates protection from attacks based on accusations of apostasy.[35] In a Pew Research Center poll, public support for capital punishment for apostasy among Muslims ranged from 78% in Afghanistan to less than 1% in Kazakhstan.

Apostasy in Islam - Wikipedia

But this is a sideline.

It's a shame that more Christians don't act like Jesus the Christ.

It's a blessing that more Muslims don't act like Mohammed.
 
Dec 2014
28,235
15,845
Memphis, Tn.
Ah, no Hollywood. It's a measure of popular sentiment in those Islamic countries, and it's not my claim. It's the work product from one of the world's most reputable pollsters. I realize their data doesn't fit your world view, but you're going to need a strong effort than that to discredit it.
You going to answer the question I actually asked or what?
Blah-Blah-Blah... what's not clear about the questions I asked?
Where the fuck did I try to discredit the info? You see me argue that the figures were inaccurate, too high, too low...anything?

I'm asking what are the actual RESULTS of these opinions, this "support" of legally killing people for leaving Islam.
C'mon. you're not dumb.
 
Dec 2014
28,235
15,845
Memphis, Tn.
What I could find quickly:

As of 2014, laws in various Muslim-majority countries prescribed for the apostate (Arabic: مرتد‎ murtadd) sentences ranging from execution to a prison term to no punishment.[31][32] Sharia courts in some countries use civil code to void the Muslim apostate's marriage and to deny child-custody rights as well as inheritance rights.[33] In the years 1985-2006, three governments executed four individuals for apostasy from Islam: "one in Sudan in 1985; two in Iran, in 1989 and 1998; and one in Saudi Arabia in 1992."[25] Twenty-three Muslim-majority countries, as of 2013, additionally covered apostasy from Islam through their criminal laws.[34] The Tunisian Constitution of 2014 stipulates protection from attacks based on accusations of apostasy.[35] In a Pew Research Center poll, public support for capital punishment for apostasy among Muslims ranged from 78% in Afghanistan to less than 1% in Kazakhstan.

Case against Islam

But this is a sideline.

It's a shame that more Christians don't act like Jesus the Christ.

It's a blessing that more Muslims don't act like Mohammed.
Yeah, I've already expressed my agreement with that statement.
 
Dec 2014
28,235
15,845
Memphis, Tn.
You haven't proved that. You made the assertion. Prove it.

Truly, it doesn't matter how often it's acted upon. The survey wasn't of governments. It was of the people. The people believe it. That's what matters.
Technically that's true, I have not. Come pretty close. :D
Personally I don't care what those people do or don't support. I don't live in those places and even if i did I''ve never been a Muslim so i could not exactly be punished for leaving Islam.
 
Dec 2018
5,973
1,594
New England
Here's a fun game. There are a dozen or so different "freedom indexes" on the web. They attempt to rank countries by the degree to which basic human rights are protected. I'm sure each has their own special forumla, but their aim is the same. I like Cato's, but pick your favorite, then try to find the highest ranking Islamic nation.

Unless I missed one after sorting the list, the highest on Cato's are Jordan and Bahrain, which clock in among others at #75. This means the very best the Islamic world has to offer by this measure is worse than places like Rwanda and only slightly better than Columbia.

Cato's list of higher ranked countries: New Zealand, Switzerland, Hong Kong, Australia, Canada, Denmark, Netherlands, Ireland, United Kingdom, Finland, Norway, Taiwan, Germany, Estonia, Luxembourg, Austria, Sweden, United States, Malta, Lithuania, Czech Rep., Portugal, Latvia, Romania, Singapore, Spain, Belgium, Iceland, Korea, South, Cyprus, Japan, Chile, France, Italy, Slovenia, Slovak Rep., Costa Rica, Mauritius, Poland, Georgia, Bulgaria, Hungary, Uruguay, Croatia, Mongolia, Panama, Peru, Albania, Israel, Bahamas, Serbia, Montenegro, Cape Verde, Seychelles, Fiji, Macedonia, Armenia, Ghana, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Jamaica, Cambodia, Greece, South Africa, Belize, Botswana, Guatemala, Barbados, Suriname, Dominican Rep., El Salvador, Rwanda, Paraguay, Philippines, Namibia

Cato's full list can be downloaded here: Human Freedom Index
 
  • Like
Reactions: imaginethat
Jul 2018
2,712
791
Earth
you are right only from one perspective, the issue of behaviour. when it comes to the brutality, oppression, war-in-the-name-of-god, intolerance, silencing of free speech, misogyny, etc. there isnt much difference between middle ages christendom and islamic states like ISIS, taliban, etc.

but you are very wrong about the doctrine itself. christianity does contain stories and records of violence, of genocides, of infanticide, rape, etc. i dont pretend it doesnt but those stories are in the form of history. or in the form of a persons recollection of events. it is NOT doctrine in the form of direct commands to christians to do this or that. it is NOT in the form of instructions that must be followed today. plus, almost all of it is from the old testament and most christians say thats now irrelevant, the new testament superseeds it. when you look to the new testament, the actual words of jesus most of it is love thy neighbour, turn the other cheek, let he who is without sin throw the first stone, etc. there is certainly homophobia and slavery which is hard to swallow in the 21st century, but there is also lots and lots of good stuff.

thats why when the renaissance arrived, and people started to read the bible and compare its teachings to the claims of political rulers, they realised those who were being violent in the name of god were perverting the system, telling lies, misusing something relatively good for evil purposes. and things changed.

islamic doctrine is fundamentally, totally, completely different. it is full of direct commands to kill, to wage war, to persecute, to enslave, to beat ones wife, to hate non muslims, to impose islam on everyone by force if neccessary. and it is full of instructions that say these orders last forever and apply equally today. it is full of commands that this doctrine must be fulfilled, or you will burn in eternal hellfire. it is full of commands that allah loves those who follow islamic doctrine without questioning it. and there is nothing tempering this, it is violent to the core. there is even the principle of abrogation, where the bits revealed later override the bits revealed earlier, and the later passages are the worst of all.

thats why, when people do read the quran and other books of islamic doctrine, they become psychos and fly to ISIS to start beheading people. they start imposing barbaric laws like stoning gays and amputating hands. and they can show, very easily, that this is exactly what the quran says.

and thats whats so frustrating for me and imaginethat, when we who have actually read islamic doctrine argue with people who havent, and hear them say "its no different to the bible". it IS different. very different. polar opposite kind of different.
The original statement was that the Koran is more violent than the Bible.

In reality the Bible is far more violent than the Koran is.

The original statement did not say that Islam is more violent than Christian doctrine is. However, the Christian doctrine (New Testament) does reference destruction and killing more than the Koran does so by that standard Christianity is more violent than Islam.

"Killing and destruction are referenced slightly more often in the New Testament (2.8%) than in the Quran (2.1%), but the Old Testament clearly leads—more than twice that of the Quran—in mentions of destruction and killing (5.3%)."
A software engineer analyzed the Quran and the Bible to see which was more violent — here's what he found

The difference between muslims and Christians is that when muslims go off the rails they engage in limited atrocities. They act as individuals or in small groups. They become loud and obnoxious and the fanatics force the others to act submissive.

Christians, OTOH, engage in violence on an industrial scale and once they start killing will kill tens of millions without a second thought. They don't tend to become hysterical and start yelling about it. They just get busy and start killing.

So, when muslims get pissed off a few will go on a rampage and kill a few people. When Christians get pissed off they will stay calm and kill an unlimited number of people without a second thought or any remorse.

Read history for examples.
 
Mar 2019
199
33
The Mall
The original statement was that the Koran is more violent than the Bible.

In reality the Bible is far more violent than the Koran is.

The original statement did not say that Islam is more violent than Christian doctrine is. However, the Christian doctrine (New Testament) does reference destruction and killing more than the Koran does so by that standard Christianity is more violent than Islam.

"Killing and destruction are referenced slightly more often in the New Testament (2.8%) than in the Quran (2.1%), but the Old Testament clearly leads—more than twice that of the Quran—in mentions of destruction and killing (5.3%)."
A software engineer analyzed the Quran and the Bible to see which was more violent — here's what he found

The difference between muslims and Christians is that when muslims go off the rails they engage in limited atrocities. They act as individuals or in small groups. They become loud and obnoxious and the fanatics force the others to act submissive.

Christians, OTOH, engage in violence on an industrial scale and once they start killing will kill tens of millions without a second thought. They don't tend to become hysterical and start yelling about it. They just get busy and start killing.

So, when muslims get pissed off a few will go on a rampage and kill a few people. When Christians get pissed off they will stay calm and kill an unlimited number of people without a second thought or any remorse.

Read history for examples.
Looks like you've confused government with the Christian Church. It wasn't Christians that dropped two atomic bombs on Japan. It was one man, President Harry Truman.