Common Libertarian Myths

Nov 2018
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Rocky Mountains
If someone believes the government should have the power and authority to confiscate the wealth or real estate from another person (income tax, civil asset seizure, eminent domain), then they don't really believe in property.
Perhaps they do not believe in YOUR concept of property.

If someone believes the government should have the power and authority to execute another person, then they don't really believe in life.
Why not, if you believe one person can execute another, why not the group of people we label as "the government"?

Yes, the courier companies use use public roads and FAA ATC. That's not by choice. Those companies would be just as profitable, or even MORE profitable if the roads were private toll roads, and the airports were private sector controlled.
I can almost certainly promise that you will not find any of those companies who want to use private roads and air facilities.
I don't have any idea how much UPS, FedEx, or DHL pay Taxes, but I'll bet its a boatload. Government needs to stick to essential functions.
Those companies, just like you, consume part of the public infrastructure everytime they travel. Furthermore, their existance depends upon the global US economy and geography. They extract many benefits from the environment in which they function.

Imagine how frustrated a blind person (who will never be allowed to drive a car) is to pay federal taxes for a new interstate highway.
Unless that blind person never travels, they use the roads. But, more importantly, where did you get the idea that tax payers can pick and choose what they want to fund? Get over it and Grow up! Taxes pay for the multiple functions of society that we all expect and enjoy to one extent or another. Society does not have a duty to make you happy.
 
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<snip> Grow up! <snip>
I was hoping someone would say this.

This is what frustrated people say when they come to the realization that they've run out of valid arguments to an opposing position.

Thanks! :yes:

<snip> where did you get the idea that tax payers can pick and choose what they want to fund? <snip>
LOL. you just made my point.

This is precisely why libertarians object to taxation. We don't want government to redistribute our wealth to projects or programs we object to. We want a limited government to NOT take our wealth by coercion.

PS: A blind guy in Oregon doesn't benefit from a new interstate highway between Ohio and Kentucky. But he paid for part of it.
 
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Sep 2019
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I was hoping someone would say this.

This is what frustrated people say when they come to the realization that they've run out of valid arguments to an opposing position.

Thanks! :yes:

PS: A blind guy in Oregon doesn't benefit from a new interstate highway between Ohio and Kentucky. But he paid for part of it.
He does when his wife drives him.
 
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Feb 2020
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Libertarian arguments commonly fall into certain categories:

1. "My wealth came only from my personal effort"
2. "Taxes represent an unjust taking by government"
3. "Private enterprise always is more efficient than government"

Regarding the inherent advantage of private enterprise:


......Even in the super-competitive telecoms sector, where customers have benefited from lower costs and increasing variety of services over the years, this result holds. A global survey found that ‘privatized sectors perform significantly worse’ than telecom companies remaining in state hands.2

Healthcare is where this myth is really given the lie. In the US, where healthcare spending is at its peak, with private spending on healthcare exceeding public spending, basic health outcomes are worse than in Cuba – which spends a fraction of the US amount per person in a totally public healthcare system (see table).

Myth 5 table

A 2012 report by the US Institute of Medicine was damning:

‘30 cents of every medical dollar goes to unnecessary healthcare, deceitful paperwork, fraud and other waste. The $750 billion in annual waste is more than the Pentagon budget and more than enough to care for every American who lacks health insurance… Most of the waste came from unnecessary services ($210 billion annually), excess administrative costs ($190 billion) and inefficient delivery of care ($130 billion).’2 ........
I have a few thoughts on this,
Now correct me if im wrong,not that that needed saying
Part 1 what i have i made is true at the same time there were probably employees , material distributors, accountants ,hr , insurance etc..
Now all these get paid for services from you so that is valid.
Now the anti monopoly rules and regulated pricing and ability to obtain materials is gov.
Taxes are unjust.
I believed this for many years and still are not ok withh them.
But i realized its more in how and why they are taken.
There is possibilities for non regulated free trade to be manipulated.
Take the tea party post for instance not only was it about tax without representation, but also about corporations. The east india comp. was a corp.
Free of the rule of kings and created a monopoly and took out all other competition leaving them sole distributors of goods wich they priced any way they chose.
It happens the same today with you corporations buying out starting companies and making them their own. Of course they keep the name so not to be a monopoly.
And telecom from another post. Two corporations own the airwaves and all others pay to use it.
They also have to bend to requirements of the two like the contracts for cell phones. If read all are basically identical but different enough to not make them boiler contracts. So in theory you could go to another company as free trade suggests
But if the government regulated this or actually did their jobs and not what the same corporations wanted, we would not worry about that.
This would require taxes.
It is easy to think of this as i dont need gov to protect me but if there were none then the corporations would just take out the competitors and price as they wanted without the ruse of options.
Private enterprise
This actually is right, as it is t the government building our roads, they sell contracts to private companies who do.
The irs was originally a private company contracted by the treasury dept. and alot of beauracratic institutions are if not private then borderline government, or at least backed by them.
But with the contract gouging and poor results by the private companies it does seem pointless to use a middle man and pay for the service through tax.
It would be better to have local gov do it so they could hold them to a higher standard.
I do not see the reason federal involvement is needed in the majority of taxable things.
Education, healthcare, road care, they should be there to ensure a level field across the republic.
We already pay all these taxes at a local level.
Minus healthcare of course. But that as we know is the same problem as telecom since it really doesnt matter what company you go with its all hmos ppos and that weird savings account you can put money in so you wont be caught out when you discover they all dont actually pay for most of it unless you front the money and have the time and energy to try to get reimbursed.
I wish the libertarian ideals were applicable as they are good ideas but they rely too much on the likemindedness of people.
Unfortunately we still need someone to tell the bad kids no.
Unless there is a solution to this wich i am all for hearing


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Nov 2018
6,603
4,100
Rocky Mountains
I have a few thoughts on this,
Now correct me if im wrong,not that that needed saying
Part 1 what i have i made is true at the same time there were probably employees , material distributors, accountants ,hr , insurance etc..
Now all these get paid for services from you so that is valid.
Now the anti monopoly rules and regulated pricing and ability to obtain materials is gov.
Taxes are unjust.
I believed this for many years and still are not ok withh them.
But i realized its more in how and why they are taken.
There is possibilities for non regulated free trade to be manipulated.
Take the tea party post for instance not only was it about tax without representation, but also about corporations. The east india comp. was a corp.
Free of the rule of kings and created a monopoly and took out all other competition leaving them sole distributors of goods wich they priced any way they chose.
It happens the same today with you corporations buying out starting companies and making them their own. Of course they keep the name so not to be a monopoly.
And telecom from another post. Two corporations own the airwaves and all others pay to use it.
They also have to bend to requirements of the two like the contracts for cell phones. If read all are basically identical but different enough to not make them boiler contracts. So in theory you could go to another company as free trade suggests
But if the government regulated this or actually did their jobs and not what the same corporations wanted, we would not worry about that.
This would require taxes.
It is easy to think of this as i dont need gov to protect me but if there were none then the corporations would just take out the competitors and price as they wanted without the ruse of options.
Private enterprise
This actually is right, as it is t the government building our roads, they sell contracts to private companies who do.
The irs was originally a private company contracted by the treasury dept. and alot of beauracratic institutions are if not private then borderline government, or at least backed by them.
But with the contract gouging and poor results by the private companies it does seem pointless to use a middle man and pay for the service through tax.
It would be better to have local gov do it so they could hold them to a higher standard.
I do not see the reason federal involvement is needed in the majority of taxable things.
Education, healthcare, road care, they should be there to ensure a level field across the republic.
We already pay all these taxes at a local level.
Minus healthcare of course. But that as we know is the same problem as telecom since it really doesnt matter what company you go with its all hmos ppos and that weird savings account you can put money in so you wont be caught out when you discover they all dont actually pay for most of it unless you front the money and have the time and energy to try to get reimbursed.
I wish the libertarian ideals were applicable as they are good ideas but they rely too much on the likemindedness of people.
Unfortunately we still need someone to tell the bad kids no.
Unless there is a solution to this wich i am all for hearing


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ok. Long rant. I take form it that you believe that ALL of personal success is solely due to personal effort. Correct me if I am wrong.
You do not seem to recognize that corporation growth is a natural product of libertarian free enterprise as unregulated capitalism results in success of the successful until a monopoly is established. So you seem to be in favor of limited capitalism but that would require government intervention (in direct violation of libertarian thinking)
I don't think libertarian thinking or ideals can be consistent with some taxation. It seems like the libertarians are decidedly anti-tax, across the board.
Finally, on the issue of "private" vs "public" success, the emphasis on "private" means that the libertarian needs to explain how established and successful public enterprises (like utilities, food and drug oversight, highways, air travel, insurance, professional certification, natural resource management, etc. etc. ) are going to be accomplished by the private sector. And how are emergencies going to be dealt with by the private sector??
So I come back to my reliable position--- libertarian politics is just a wet dream for those who want to whine about the responsibilities and practical chores of a real society.
 
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Nov 2018
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I was hoping someone would say this.

This is what frustrated people say when they come to the realization that they've run out of valid arguments to an opposing position.

Thanks! :yes:


LOL. you just made my point.

This is precisely why libertarians object to taxation. We don't want government to redistribute our wealth to projects or programs we object to. We want a limited government to NOT take our wealth by coercion.

PS: A blind guy in Oregon doesn't benefit from a new interstate highway between Ohio and Kentucky. But he paid for part of it.
I think you are so determined to adhere to an absurd political dogma that you read into statements only what you already believe.
There is no "happy place society" where people only contribute what makes them happy. All those communes died out in the 70's.
Your blind guy in Oregon benefits by having the dog bowl he ordered from Ohio and the banjo from Kentucky delivered to his front door by efficient ground transportation. He could not afford them otherwise.
Furthermore, the highway system must be seen as a gestalt. It is part of the economic infrastructure that includes the financial system, trucking industry, national security (part of the origin reason Eisenhower promoted the network of freeways), and even promotes the flexible culture which allows Americans to travel in and out of various regions for school or recreation or work.
 
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Feb 2020
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<snip> It seems like the libertarians are decidedly anti-tax, across the board. <snip>
Many libertarians ARE anti-tax, across the board. But not all of us.

I'm fine with INDIRECT taxes because they can be avoided. INDIRECT taxes include tariffs, Sales Tax and Excise (Usage) Tax

If you don't want to pay the Gasoline Tax, you have the freedom to drive a Tesla.

If you don't want to pay the Liquor Tax, become a teetotaler.

It is DIRECT TAXES that I object to. DIRECT TAXES are Income Tax and Property Tax. If I'm productive, and own property, there's no way for me to escape paying these taxes.

Very few libertarians object to ALL forms of taxation.
 
Sep 2019
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Louisville, Ky
Many are anti-tax, across the board. But not all of us.

I'm fine with INDIRECT taxes because they can be avoided. INDIRECT taxes include tariffs, Sales Tax and Excise (Usage) Tax

If you don't want to pay the Gasoline Tax, you have the freedom to drive a Tesla.

If you don't want to pay the Liquor Tax, become a teetotaler.

It is DIRECT TAXES that I object to. DIRECT TAXES are Income Tax and Property Tax. If I'm productive, and own property, there's no way for me to escape paying these taxes.

Very few libertarians object to ALL forms of taxation.
So doing away with the police that protect your property, the firefighters who put your barn fire out, the EMT that saves your life and the untilities that give you water and electric would be fine with you?
 
Nov 2018
6,603
4,100
Rocky Mountains
If you don't want to pay the Gasoline Tax, you have the freedom to drive a Tesla.
That is a good example of a reason for a general tax. The Tesla exerts a drain on the electrical grid as well as the wear on the highways and the risk requiring attention of the Highway Patrol (in calif). You are promoting parasitic injury to the commons.
It is DIRECT TAXES that I object to. DIRECT TAXES are Income Tax and Property Tax. If I'm productive, and own property, there's no way for me to escape paying these taxes.

Very few libertarians object to ALL forms of taxation.
Since taxation is such a central part of Libertarian thinking, tax objection has to be seen as a fundamental tenet of the political philosophy. If the libertarian thinking is that one should just pay the taxes that they find acceptable, you have, again, demonstrated the absurdity of the politics.
 

RNG

Forum Staff
Apr 2013
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I understand taxation better than you think, Clara.

More importantly, I understand the difference between right and wrong.

When a government takes the fruits of my labor by coercion (income taxes) or seizes my property (eminent domain) it is WRONG, and unjust.

It matters not how my stolen money is redistributed.

“Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure." - Mark Skousen
Your OPINION of what is wrong is not shared by a vast majority of both citizens of the US and all the people in the world.

It is hubris on your part to assume that you are right and all of them are wrong.
 
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