Cost of AOC's Green New Deal

Jul 2014
14,918
9,149
massachusetts
#21
Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

So it is estimated that the Green New Deal will cost around $93 trillion. Think of it, the current debt is only a little over $20 trillion, which is more debt collected in the history of mankind.

So I assume the defenders of the Green New Deal, which seems to be everyone in the DNC who has tried to latch on to AOC's popularity by signing on to this policy, will say either that these numbers are way to high, or that we have no choice and that the consequences would be much worse.

So which is it?

Also, how much debt is too much debt? Is there a limit where the country becomes insolvent and folds up?
What's the cost of a 5 degree temperature rise?
 
Likes: Clara007
Dec 2013
33,811
19,360
Beware of watermelons
#22
Alex Ocasio-Cortez is such an easy target, isn't she?? All these crazy new-fangled ideas emanating from such a brainless female? Not so fast.
Let's see a show of hands. How many think this GND is a new "thing"? If you raised your hand you would be wrong. The term Green New Deal is reminiscent of FDR's New Deal for a reason. The term showed up in 2007 when a columnist, Thomas Friedman, for the New York Times wrote a book called "Hot, Flat and Crowded". Friedman's ideas were taken up by an upstart politician named Barack Obama in 2008. The Brits picked up the idea about that same time and so did the United Nations, who all referred to the plan as GND. This was the centerpiece of Jill Stein's presidential run in 2016 and Bernie Sanders played it up. Are you with me so far? IN other words--- Many pieces of the GND have been worked on by many people over the years. The constituent ideas — 100 percent clean energy; a just transition to a new, better economy; massive public sector investments — are not new. So why is this SUDDENLY an OMG!!--we've been thunderstruck by AOC??

AND what has the GOP said/done? Yawned. Called AOC stupid.

There are THREE core principals involved in the GND: Decarbonization, Jobs and Justice. This is a 10-year "tiger by the tail" commitment--100% renewable electricity. Naturally, the nay-sayers are already standing in line, ready to say "This will never work." Instead of "How can we help?" "What can WE do?" Pay strict attention to those and don't vote for them. These are the same people who are happy in Mayberry RFD.
Other projects: Decarbonize transportation. Decarbonize buildings, industry, consumption, and the economy.
AOC's Plan includes a federal jobs guarantee and large-scale public investments.
The plan must include a transition. Part of that is workforce training and the job guarantee, part of it is ensuring that all those jobs come with strong labor, environmental, and nondiscrimination standards, part of it is investments in those communities to fund programs like lead remediation, and part of it is making sure that all the investments — that all parts of the GND — follow strong environmental-justice standards.
The Green New Deal, explained

AND the detractors are shouting: HOW YA GONNA PAY FOR IT, Alex??

Alex replies: When Congress funnels trillions to the military or cuts taxes for the wealthy, no one asks how they will pay for it. Pay-for demands seem only to apply to Democrats, and only for social spending. Climate change impacts are going to cost more than climate mitigation anyway. AND there are options for raising revenue like a carbon tax and fines/fees for non-compliance.

So go ahead. Laugh till you cry. We've done this before, America. It's not like we've been to the moon or anything, is it?

Yes we know it's not new. In fact the primary components have been implemented before. This is why so many reject them. The outcomes are well documented.



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Likes: NatMorton
Dec 2013
33,811
19,360
Beware of watermelons
#23
...and the studies from the scientific research that concluded that it "is just plain silly unless we are going to use a whole lot less energy than we do now" can be found at...?

(Personally speaking, I think it is quite possible the entire (lower 48 states + possibly Alaska via Canada) could eventually become 100% electrified by wind and solar...along with various forms of energy storage such as flow batteries, & all connected together in a smart grid. That evolving technology actually exists today...and at deceasing prices over time, combined with increasing capabilities and efficiencies.)

I do not believe that the battery technology exists to make that sustainable.

This is the irony of electric cars.... the calories involved in making and transporting the batteries that in all reality are trash and have what a 10 year shelf life. Then what? Where do they go? But hey you have a prius, right? So you can look down your nose at all thise unenlightened simpletons who still use gas.
 
Dec 2015
17,319
16,301
Arizona
#25
@ Organic quote: We are not talking about a few trillion dollars here, not even $5 billion dollars that the Dims are in a fight to the death to stop from being paid to fund building a wall. No. We are talking about $90 trillion some dollars here.
So I will ask you, is the price tag accurate or do you offer another?

I have no idea whether $90 trill is accurate--and neither do you. First up, the $90 trill proposal is over 10 years--more than likely it will be more like 20 years, but who's counting?

And if it is another, who will say? AOC won't.
Ah. So you've spoken to AOC and she has personally told you she won't say? OR you are a mind reader? You are one talented guy, aren't you?

Don't you think questions like this are important or does it really not matter how far in debt the US goes? Was Dick Cheney right? Do deficits really not matter?
Dick Cheney?? IS Slick Dick the gold standard these days? There's a lot of controversy over whether deficits matter or not. Since the U.S. has had deficits for most of our history, maybe Dick is right. I'm certainly no expert. Are you? Oh that's right. You're the one asking the question.

If not, why do any of us work for a living? Pay off my mortgage and give me free cash to live on and I'll give you my car and never fly on a plane. I'll even give up red meat and it will all be a whole lot cheaper.
So you think that the U.S. federal government is like a household budget? The U.S. government is never going to pay off its debt no matter what it is. First, the government controls its own income base. The government also controls the very value of the dollar with which it pays its debt. The U.S. gov can change the actual value of the debt it owes by influencing the inflation or depreciation rates of its own currency.
The government is drastically different from an individual in the fact that it doesn't have any definitive lifespan. In fact, the government has the unique ability to simply pay the interest due on its debt and, when the final principal payment comes due, roll that debt into a new term. Therefore, the government has the potential to never actually pay off its actual debt, this is most similar to an individual taking an interest-only loan and refinancing it perpetually as the principal comes due.
Lastly, this nation's debt reflects investments---not fruitless spending.
 
Jun 2018
5,995
1,381
South Dakota
#26
An idea that has merit is huge mirrors in space that are focused on receptors on the ground. They can be positioned to provide a 24 hr sustained power output. They don't necessarily use photo panels but are devices that boil water to power steam generators. The focused beams would have the ability to burn thru cloud cover. An obstacle is described as precipitation. Eliminating batteries with fuel cells is the only practical way to get rid if them anytime soon.
 
Jun 2018
5,995
1,381
South Dakota
#27
What's the cost of a 5 degree temperature rise?
Whatever the cost of $90t is plus the eventual and inevitable overruns and oops we forgot this...........
OBTW is $90t in debt actually possible in todays money market?

remember that the only country we re talking about is the US. What of the rest of the world? Will they do what they've always done, stick us with the improvements and then refuse to do theirs?
This whole dream has the potential to become a disaster for our economy which will lead to a general world economic collapse and world chaos. This plays right into the socialist/communist hands in creating a worldwide war. Thanks, but no thanks.
 
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Nov 2013
2,614
1,132
NM
#28
How can this "Green New Deal" not include nuclear power investment?

Does anyone here think the US can be fossil fuel free with just wind and solar?

From a scientific viewpoint, that is just plain silly unless we are going to use a whole lot less energy than we do now.
Yah. From a scientific viewpoint, fossil, wind, solar, OTEC, tide, hydro, are all ultimately driven by solar fusion. That free energy is turned into wood, anything we burn to release calories. Even geothermal is a function of gravity, which accumulated matter in a disk centered on the proto-sun ages ago. Nuclear power is a kind of exception, but those ores (& the heavy metals, I believe) originated in supernovae ages ago - so we're back where we started.

Maybe the cultures that worshipped the sun were onto something?
 
Jul 2014
14,918
9,149
massachusetts
#29
93 Trillion is a made up number, from a right think tank.

And what we spend on renewable energy infrastructure is part our economy, providing jobs, and economic activity.
 
Likes: Clara007
Nov 2013
2,614
1,132
NM
#30
So if the US takes a big hit on the economy by tackling this issue and China does not, then China will be that much stronger.

And if China overtakes the US, well.................then the country that does not give a damn about carbon emissions will reign as king.

Food for thought.
It's probably easier for the US to work on carbon emissions than it is for China. They're manufacturing a lot of products - steel, cement, coal-fired energy, transportation infrastructure, cars & trucks - while the US is moving more & more into services. & of course China manufactures a lot of electronics for world export, including the US. We'll have to face that issue @ some point soon - there are national security concerns there.

But then, it's hard to reign when you have chronic breathing problems - from air pollution. & their environmental issues go to potable water, water for crops, & there seem to be lots of food adulteration issues there as well. Scandals apparently not much affected by putting offenders up against a wall & shooting them. That's serious malfeasance, when bullets don't cure the problem.