Democratic Socialism Is the Scenic Route to Serfdom

Nov 2018
5,549
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Rocky Mountains
Artificially increasing the cost of labor puts a downward pressure on job creation. While some will surely benefit from a government-imposed "living wage" others will find themselves out of work.
Perhaps the better way to phrase your argument is the obverse-- While some will find themselves out of work, surely others will benefit from a government-imposed "living wage"


It is not an employer's responsibility to ensure your labor is, or remains, economically worthwhile; it's yours
In the narrowest sense, perhaps that is true. However, the employer who needs employees must concern himself/herself with the quality and availability of workers, so it becomes a concern, if not a responsibility, of the employer to employ workers who can afford to work. One can even argue that a "responsible" employer who wants the business to survive, will be concerned about the welfare of employees.


Society funds up to 12 years of public education and highly subsidizes community colleges. Libraries, with their thousands of books and their available computers with internet access, are also free.
Thus there is little excuse for those able-bodied and of sound mind to lack marketable job skills. It's primarily a question of effort, and try as we might, there's no subsidy that can instill a work ethic.
How did you arrive at that conclusion? Be very specific about how much social support is sufficient for you to objectively make that claim.
For example, how much LESS of all these opportunities would be too little to support your claim.

I suspect that, rather than being objective proof for your argument, you are just using a public library or public schooling as a rationalization to blame the victims of economic conditions for their plight.
 
Feb 2014
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Oregon
The central points I have been making here are these:
  1. Artificially increasing the cost of labor puts a downward pressure on job creation. While some will surely benefit from a government-imposed "living wage" others will find themselves out of work.

  2. It is not an employer's responsibility to ensure your labor is, or remains, economically worthwhile; it's yours.

  3. Society funds up to 12 years of public education and highly subsidizes community colleges. Libraries, with their thousands of books and their available computers with internet access, are also free.

Thus there is little excuse for those able-bodied and of sound mind to lack marketable job skills. It's primarily a question of effort, and try as we might, there's no subsidy that can instill a work ethic.
I agree with your first point. That is why there needs to be government assistance to subsidize the industries that can not pay more. All economies are supported by the low wage earners, and all societies need to level the playing field with assistance that is paid for collectively. There should be no doubt that a working person has a decent standard of living, and disabled people need that security too simply because that is the human thing to do.

Point two can be argued because our government does so much to manage the economy and to secure our security. It is the government protecting the economy that is at issue. Some insist this is best done by top down management of the economy, giving those at the top the tax breaks and trade agreements and laws that benefit those at the top. Others say a good national economy and our welfare needs to be managed from the bottom up and this is the side of the argument I agree with. It is what made our nation great. This would not be the issue it is today if we threw out the autocratic model of industry and replace it with the democratic model. We can not be a totally healthy democracy until we do that, and some would argue it is democracy that caused us to do so well, not autocracy. I am saying what has worked needs to be expanded to the workplace and all citizens.

Point three, many children have extemely bad schools and they are not prepared for life nor to use the public library. They can not even imagine life as you know it. Demanding everyone function as you believe each one of us should function is a terrible error in understanding because not everyone had the experiences and relationships that lead to you being who you are and no one is filled the confidence and knowledge you have without an experience equal to yours. Our democracy is based on a belief that humans have a very high potential and it is possible to have a civilization that helps everyone actualize who s/he is and make her/his best contribution to the civilization. Do you want to argue that is not so, and then why that is not so?

I want to make it very clear, if we had the democratic model of industry, we would have a much better reality with many more people succeeding in life and much fewer falling to the side. Autocratic industry has contributed to the problems we have and need to address that.
 
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Feb 2014
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Oregon
BEFORE ANYONE JUDGES OUR FAILURES AND THE RESPONSIBILITY OF EMPLOYERS, EVERYONE NEEDS TO UNDERSTAND THE EVILS OF AUTOCRACY AND WHAT MAKES DEMOCRACY DIFFERENT.
 
Dec 2018
2,616
1,607
Unionville Indiana
As opposed to individual anecdotes or ideological assertions, I prefer considering the evidence and the best informed opinion available:



... For decades, minimum-wage opponents have been doom-saying about the likely impact of higher wages on the economy. But review of the best evidence makes clear that their predictions have not been borne out by real-world results. Our analysis of simple job-growth data—both economy-wide and in the industries most affected by higher minimum wages— shows that there is no correlation between minimum-wage increases and reduced employment levels. As those results mirror the findings of decades of more sophisticated academic research, they provide simple confirmation that opponents’ perennial predictions of job losses are rooted in ideology, not evidence. ...

 
Nov 2018
5,549
3,019
Rocky Mountains
I want to make it very clear, if we had the democratic model of industry, we would have a much better reality with many more people succeeding in life and much fewer falling to the side. Autocratic industry has contributed to the problems we have and need to address that.
I think that is correct. Your "democratic model" is a bit vague. Perhaps you meant "social democratic model".
However there is certainly very little recognition that American industry is autocratic and interconnected at the top and promotes a sort of socialism of the rich by leveraging government action for the benefit of industry.
 
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Feb 2014
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CAPS LOCK DOESN'T HELP
Does not help what, your ability to understand, or getting everyone's attention? I think most posters do not read the post, and it is my hope by making some words more visible they will be noticed and people will think about them. I want everyone to think about the evils of autocracy and what makes democracy better.

I had training for using the democratic model as supervisor and I know this model is extremely different from the autocratic model and that the democratic model greatly increases success while the autocratic model greatly contributes failure and very bad family life. The autocratic model is plain evil and we should put an end to it.
 

RNG

Forum Staff
Apr 2013
40,295
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La La Land North
How about doing a budget for someone earning $15 an hours. Figure into that property managers requiring a person's income is great enough that rent is only 1/3 of the income, and tell me where the person will find affordable housing. Let us assume this job does not have medical insurance and now budget for medical care and set aside some money for retirement. How is your budget looking? How about adding 2 children and child care to that budget. Now add in a car insurance and repairs and a cell phone. How does that budget look now?

PS I owned my own business and could not pay minimum wages and everything else, without working for less than minimum wage myself, nor could I charge more for the service and remain competitive. The cost of growth was a challenge as there was a period when the cost of new equipment needed for the growth was greater than the income and if didn't pay for itself by adding customers, things would be worse. I am not a great business person, and I sure know the problems! Getting a business past the growing pains is a miracle and not all businesses can cover the increase in the minimum wage. That is why we need assisted housing and universal medical care and assistance with food, so working people can have decent lives, and the business can keep prices down.
Did you ever consider that maybe your business was just unviable?
 
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Feb 2014
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Oregon
I think that is correct. Your "democratic model" is a bit vague. Perhaps you meant "social democratic model".
However there is certainly very little recognition that American industry is autocratic and interconnected at the top and promotes a sort of socialism of the rich by leveraging government action for the benefit of industry.

My hero is Deming. During the great depression he tried to convince industry to use the democratic model for industry and if our industry had made that transition, we not have a fascist model of government today. That is a government managing the wrongs of autocracy, by being a stronger autocratic force.

Deming took his model to Japan when the US was Americanizing Japan after the war. Japan's industry was so destroyed they had to rebuild it and accepted Deming's model. Get this, Japan far surpassed us in the competition for world markets. Instead of made in Japan meaning cheap products with no value, we turn to Japan for its leadership in technology and high quality. Anyway here is what made the difference.

  1. toward improvement of product and service, with the aim to become competitive and to stay in business, and to provide jobs.
    [*]Adopt the new philosophy. We are in a new economic age. Western management must awaken to the challenge, must learn their responsibilities, and take on leadership for change.
    [*]Cease dependence on inspection to achieve quality. Eliminate the need for inspection on a mass basis by building quality into the product in the first place.
    [*]End the practice of awarding business on the basis of price tag. Instead, minimize total cost. Move toward a single supplier for any one item, on a long-term relationship of loyalty and trust.
    [*]Improve constantly and forever the system of production and service, to improve quality and productivity, and thus constantly decrease costs.
    [*]Institute training on the job.
    [*]Institute leadership (see point 12 and Chapter 8 in Out of the Crisis). The aim of supervision should be to help people and machines and gadgets to do a better job. Supervision of management is in need of overhaul, as well as supervision of production workers.
    [*]Drive out fear, so that everyone may work effectively for the company (see Chapter 3).
    [*]Break down barriers between departments. People in research, design, sales, and production must work as a team, to foresee problems of production and in use that may be encountered with the product or service.
    [*]Eliminate slogans, exhortations, and targets for the work force asking for zero defects and new levels of productivity. Such exhortations only create adversarial relationships, as the bulk of the causes of low quality and low productivity belong to the system and thus lie beyond the power of the work force.
    [*]a. Eliminate work standards (quotas) on the factory floor. Substitute leadership.
    b. Eliminate management by objective. Eliminate management by numbers, numerical goals. Substitute leadership.
    [*]a. Remove barriers that rob the hourly worker of his right to pride of workmanship. The responsibility of supervisors must be changed from sheer numbers to quality.
    b. Remove barriers that rob people in management and in engineering of their right to pride of workmanship. This means, inter alia, abolishment of the annual or merit rating and of management by objective (see chapter 3).
    [*]Institute a vigorous program of education and self-improvement.
    [*]Put everybody in the company to work to accomplish the transformation. The transformation is everybody’s job.