If a city was being designed from scratch, what would you like for it to have?

Nov 2017
1,431
793
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#71
You wouldn't mean figuring things out has something to do with reasoning, would you? We all need to become more mathematically minded so we can have this discussion. What do we have to work with? How much land? What are the resources? What is the size of the population that live within these limits?
Let's say we have nothing to work with but a blank slate of sand-covered desert that's substantially flat, with few hills, not much when it comes to water sources, no oil or minerals to mine, and not much plant or animal life around. For area size, let's go with a 25 mile by 25 mile (40 km x 40 km) plot. The population will start off being 0, until the construction workers, carpenters, electricians, plumbers, telecom techs, and other infrastructure workers come in to set things up. They'll need to eat, so the people who cook and prepare food will also be needed. This is why I think it'll initially start off as simple & small towns with a "pipeline" of resources (e.g., food and supplies being trucked in). Before the infrastructure workers come in with 2'x4's, nails, bricks, and concrete, the area will have to be surveyed & assessed, which would involve surveyors, engineers, city planning experts, architects, etc.

From there, once it's determine what kind of residential areas, single family homes, townhouses, apartments, condominiums, schools, healthcare facilities, etc. can be supported, then maybe an estimate can be made on the population capacity. But let me ask you this, has anyone ever asked what the population capacity for any town or city would be, before they were created? Did someone ask what would the population capacity be for Las Vegas, before it went from plain desert to a large populated city? Why does such a question need to be asked?
 
Dec 2013
31,089
18,647
Beware of watermelons
#72
Did anyone answer the question of what this planned city has for an economic base? You can not paint walls with urine proof paint if you don't have the money for the paint. Where is the town getting its money? What is the income for the community? Where does the town get its electricity and water? What are the town's resources and what must be imported?

If no one can answer these questions there can not be a discussion to prove if a Utopia is possible or impossible.

Seriously check out the Venus project website. It is super interesting.
 
Feb 2007
3,221
1,576
New York
#73
The Older American's Act entitles senior citizens to education. The catch is we are auditing the class and should not speak out and we do not get credit unless we pay for the classes like everyone else, and of course, if a class is full we can not audit it. I do not take advantage of this free education because I choose not to keep my mouth shut when a professor is saying things that are wrong or just should not be said. When I was young, I didn't have the courage to speak up, but today I am afraid I would end up being escorted out of the building by security people carrying guns.

I just spent 1/2 hour looking for a list of Older American entitlements and could not find an explanation that explains free college classes. If you are interested in the free education for seniors check your local college.
The problem is that you don't get a degree out of that. If a dream of finishing college is on a senior's bucket list, this program won't help them.

I don't think that I would qualify anyway. I'm 10 years shy of qualification for this act.
 
Feb 2014
2,434
1,131
Oregon
#74
The problem is that you don't get a degree out of that. If a dream of finishing college is on a senior's bucket list, this program won't help them.

I don't think that I would qualify anyway. I'm 10 years shy of qualification for this act.
Around the world education is more affordable than in the US. Have you considered the possibility of going overseas? We might speak of education in the subject of an ideal community. What do we want the young to learn and who will pay for that? Do we want people to be life long learners or not? If we want them to be life long learners how might we encourage that?

I listen to college lectures nightly. I own many and get many more from our local library, I also have a large personal library. When we are young we accumulate facts. When we are old we understand the meaning of the facts in a way the young can not. I think an intelligent community would encourage adult learning and invite these adults into the school system as volunteers to work with the young.

I would also make educational TV a tax-supported operation, and take steps to assure every home has good TV reception and I would use the newspaper to advance interest in life long learning. I am sure it is possible to make the internet much more useful for education and creating social links between people who share interest.

We need to learn from the past and we also need to be able to envision a better future and share our ideas.
 
Feb 2014
2,434
1,131
Oregon
#75
Seriously check out the Venus project website. It is super interesting.
I have been aware of the Venus Project for many years and it is far from perfect. Imagethat is right when he says we need to prepare our young to think for themselves and to be able to resolve problems. That is how we near perfection, not by engineer our notions of Utopia and trying to control for that.

This movie is over 3 hours long, however, if think we think we can build the ideal world for future generations, we really need to watch it or read the book Brave New World.

 
Feb 2014
2,434
1,131
Oregon
#76
Let's say we have nothing to work with but a blank slate of sand-covered desert that's substantially flat, with few hills, not much when it comes to water sources, no oil or minerals to mine, and not much plant or animal life around. For area size, let's go with a 25 mile by 25 mile (40 km x 40 km) plot. The population will start off being 0, until the construction workers, carpenters, electricians, plumbers, telecom techs, and other infrastructure workers come in to set things up. They'll need to eat, so the people who cook and prepare food will also be needed. This is why I think it'll initially start off as simple & small towns with a "pipeline" of resources (e.g., food and supplies being trucked in). Before the infrastructure workers come in with 2'x4's, nails, bricks, and concrete, the area will have to be surveyed & assessed, which would involve surveyors, engineers, city planning experts, architects, etc.

From there, once it's determine what kind of residential areas, single family homes, townhouses, apartments, condominiums, schools, healthcare facilities, etc. can be supported, then maybe an estimate can be made on the population capacity. But let me ask you this, has anyone ever asked what the population capacity for any town or city would be, before they were created? Did someone ask what would the population capacity be for Las Vegas, before it went from plain desert to a large populated city? Why does such a question need to be asked?
Darling, history is full of great beginnings that end in disaster. Does it matter that people have not paid attention to their resources and population limits? I don't know what happened to the group that was discussing the coming mass die off and if it can be prevented but historically we know mass die-offs have happened. Turchin's book "War and Peace and War" explains how good times become bad times and bad times become good times. Our intelligence is highly overrated if we can not make better use of available information, and do communities with a whole lot better planning than in the past.

Every year we are asked to make politic decisons and it is insane we continue to make those decisions knowing no more about the life than our personal experience of it. Not even knowing enough to ask relevant questions so we can make informed decisions. Where I live, there is a housing crisis and I maybe risking eviction to shelter my daughter until she can find new housing. A friend over 70 with a husband over 80 will become homeless this week if they do not find housing they can move into immediately and this is highly unlikely. We have homeless families because we have been through an economic crisis and now a housing crisis. We need to know the facts and we need to make better decisions NOW. I have advocated for the homeless since Reagan was office and declared we do not have homeless people, but just bums. His thinking is wrong and there are plenty of people in this forum who believe he was right then and he is still right today.

Back to your 25 X 25 desert community with little water and no mineral resources?! o_O

How much water does the average person use at home per day? Estimates vary, but each person uses about 80-100 gallons of water per day. Are you surprised that the largest use of household water is to flush the toilet, and after that, to take showers and baths?Dec 2, 2016
How much water do I use per day? - USGS
Per capita water use. Water questions and answers; USGS Water Science School
Now, how much water do you have and how do you get it to the buildings in your city and what do you do with the sewage? Once you understanding your land and water reality, you can build a plan from there.

How will you zone the land? Is there an industrial park where people might earn a living? A plasma industry could give your community some income. Just have everyone between the ages of 18 and 60 "donate" plasma weekly. What else might your community sell to the world outside your community that will give your community an income? If your communities income is not greater than what it must pay to import its needs, it will fail.

Here is how Los Vegas built an economy...

Las Vegas - Wikipedia
Las Vegas was founded as a city in 1905, when 110 acres (45 ha) of land adjacent to the Union Pacific Railroad tracks were auctioned in what would become the downtown area. In 1911, Las Vegas was incorporated as a city.[24]

1931 was a pivotal year for Las Vegas. At that time, Nevada legalized casino gambling and reduced residency requirements for divorce to six weeks. This year also witnessed the beginning of construction on nearby Hoover Dam. The influx of construction workers and their families helped Las Vegas avoid economic calamity during the Great Depression. The construction work was completed in 1935.

In 1941, the Las Vegas Army Air Corps Gunnery School was established. Currently known as Nellis Air Force Base, it is home to the aerobatic team called the Thunderbirds.

Following World War II, lavishly decorated hotels, gambling casinos, and big-name entertainment became synonymous with Las Vegas.

In the 1950s the Moulin Rouge opened and became the first racially integrated casino-hotel in Las Vegas.

In 1951, nuclear weapons testing began at the Nevada Test Site, 65 miles (105 km) northwest of Las Vegas. City residents and visitors were able to witness the mushroom clouds (and were exposed to the fallout) until 1963, when the limited Test Ban Treaty required that nuclear tests be moved underground.[25][26]

The iconic "Welcome to Las Vegas" sign, which was never located within municipal limits, was created in 1959 by Betty Willis.[27]

During the 1960s, corporations and business powerhouses such as Howard Hughes were building and buying hotel-casino properties. Gambling was referred to as "gaming" which transitioned into legitimate business.

The year 1995 marked the opening of the Fremont Street Experience in Las Vegas's downtown area. This canopied five-block area features 12.5 million LED lights and 550,000 watts of sound from dusk until midnight during shows held on the top of each hour.

Due to the realization of many revitalization efforts, 2012 was dubbed "The Year of Downtown." Hundreds of millions of dollars' worth of projects made their debut at this time. They included The Smith Center for the Performing Arts and DISCOVERY Children's Museum, Mob Museum, Neon Museum, a new City Hall complex and renovations for a new Zappos.com corporate headquarters in the old City Hall building.[23][28]
You see, your ideal community must have some way of sucking in income from the larger country. Without the ability to build an economy you can't improve the attractiveness of your community, nor maintain a high standard of living.

The gold and silver towns that became ghost towns are good examples of bad community planning. Property increases, more bankers, doctors and lawyers come to town and things are really looking good, until the mines run out and then property values dump and people leave town.
 
Feb 2014
2,434
1,131
Oregon
#78
Neil said... From what I understand, Disney World was originally meant to be a futuristic city, and it turned into a "playground" (in some ways similar to Las Vegas, in other ways not so similar LOL). This blank slate city idea I have in mind would be a little more modest and not nearly as ambitious as what Walt Disney originally had in mind for it, and I have ideas for what can be produced or provided from this city.
I think that is how governments should collect revenue. Doesn't it make sense to get money from people by giving them something they are willing to pay for, instead of taking money out of their wages and begrudging them any social services or cutting education because people don't want to be taxed for it? Begin your community with a community-owned theme park to create jobs and produce the revenue your city needs.

Do all in your power to be assure the community has the infrastructure for the best high tech communication systems, and make this community-owned for jobs, education for everyone, and revenue. Screw the privately owned water and utilities. There is no good reason to make such things privately owned for-profit and not publicly owned for a high standard of living in the community and supporting all public services. If we are not sucked dry for housing and services, we have discretionary money to support the community and everyone's self-interest.
 
Dec 2013
31,089
18,647
Beware of watermelons
#79
I have been aware of the Venus Project for many years and it is far from perfect. Imagethat is right when he says we need to prepare our young to think for themselves and to be able to resolve problems. That is how we near perfection, not by engineer our notions of Utopia and trying to control for that.

This movie is over 3 hours long, however, if think we think we can build the ideal world for future generations, we really need to watch it or read the book Brave New World.

The city design in the Venus project is what i am refering to not so much their utopian theories.


Brave new world, 1984 and the anthem are very important books. All i have had my kids read

More importantly these days is Harrison Bergeron


They made it into a short film years ago but it is not very long. Worth the read


 
Last edited:
Sep 2017
1,349
719
Hell
#80
Taxing land that is used for homes maybe something we should give up along with income taxes that workers must pay. It may have made sense to tax land when it was the only source of income people had. However, historically the rich have been privileged and exempt from taxes, putting the burden of taxes on the laborers, the peasant farmers. I think England was the first country to come up with a better system at the beginning of the industrial age, but the industrial age created more desperate poverty than wealth, so I think we could say it failed?
It is amusing that people accept life as it is instead of realizing we can change the way we do things.

Most money is made today with machines and computers, not a plow and a small field. Isn't it time update our tax system for our technological society?
Athena, businesses pay taxes on their machinery, equipment, and furniture. They also have to pay property taxes on their land and buildings if they own it, just like you or anyone else. In some places, they also assessed taxes for such things as road or sidewalk improvement/renovations.
 

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