if you repeat a lie over and over people will eventual believe it to be true

Sep 2018
6,679
1,112
cleveland ohio
#12
never happened a total hoax
Is the Black Book of Communism an accurate source?Is the Black Book of Communism an accurate source?


level 1
ImNotMarshalZhukov

30 points·11 months ago·edited 9 months ago

In short, not really. The Black Book of Communism, written by Stephane Courtois has been called into question on multiple different grounds.Some critics have objected to the book's depiction of communism and nazism as being similar, others have criticized the approach the book takes to assigning blame of deaths, and still others, most notably J.Arch Getty, for its lack of distinction between famine deaths and intentional deaths. But in terms of factual accuracy, the book is, according to most experts, off the mark.
1: Death tolls in Maoist china: The death tolls associated with maoist china are considered by most sinologists to be inaccurate. The book lists Mao's china as being responsible for 65 million deaths, particularly in regards to the Great Chinese Famine. this number is considered by most sinologists to be not-accurate. According to Leslie Holmes, the number is closer to 15 million excess deaths, which is substantiated by Chinese statistics. Similarly, the deaths attributed to the cultural revolution is assumed to be overstated, as the cited figure of 5 million is most likely closer to 400,000
2:In regards to the soviet union, the pattern of inflation remains consistant. No better is this illustrated then the Holodomor. The Holodomor, or the soviet famine of 1932-1933 was, according to most experts, both much less devastating then Courtois makes it out to be. In the book he cites a figure of 7 million famine deaths, while modern analysis estimates the death toll to be ranging from 1.8-2.5 million deaths. This is supported by soviet archival evidence, which shows a death toll of 2.4 million deaths. Furthermore, academics ranging from Robert Conquest to J Arch Getty would agree that the famine at the very least did not arise from malicious intent, but rather as a combination of environmental conditions and damage from Stalin's collectivisation of agriculture(although the importance of the two factors in regards to one-another is highly disputed) In regards to gulag deaths, which the book pins at about three million, an analysis by J Arch Getty, Gabor T Rittersporn and Viktor N Zemskov shows a death toll of slightly over a third of that amount. In regards to NKVD executions, Getty estimates slightly under 800,000 executions (however, this number also fails to account for commuted sentences and according to Austin Murphy, this number can be reduced even further to just above 100,000)

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/7n6ql2
 
Sep 2018
6,679
1,112
cleveland ohio
#13
No but you can condem a system for 100 years of outcome

120,000,000 killed by socialism since 1917.


View attachment 2527
The Black Book of Communism alleges that communism killed 94 million people during the 20th century. This number is accumulated from more than 10 different nations and various movements around the world. It includes two of some of the most populated nations on Earth — China and the Soviet Union. Despite being cited often, the Black Book of Communism has repeatedly been criticized for it’s reckless, careless, and highly questionable methodology.

Some of the major criticisms against the Black Book of Communism includes the fact that it counts the following as “victims of communism”: some nazis and their collaborators who were killed by the Soviet Union during World War II, people who died in the 1921 Russian famine (which was caused by drought, the whites stealing food, war, etc), other hunger-related deaths caused by the nazi war against the Soviet Union, and many other incidents that were dishonestly attributed. The book contains deaths dishonestly attributed to communism by completely ignoring external factors such as sanctions, foreign military intervention, etc. It also includes inaccuracies of

istorical events such as when Werth credits the Austro-Hungarian army, not the German army, for the occupation of Poland in 1915, making the ridiculous claim that the bolsheviks only had 2,000 members in October 1917 when they actually had around 200,000 members, or claiming that the infamous U.S.-backed dictator Batista “fiercely opposed” the U.S., and in some instances, pulls numbers straight out of thin air.

istorical events such as when Werth credits the Austro-Hungarian army, not the German army, for the occupation of Poland in 1915, making the ridiculous claim that the bolsheviks only had 2,000 members in October 1917 when they actually had around 200,000 members, or claiming that the infamous U.S.-backed dictator Batista “fiercely opposed” the U.S., and in some instances, pulls numbers straight out of thin air.Debunking: “Communism killed more people than naziism!”
 

Attachments

Dec 2016
5,078
2,606
Canada
#14
No but you can condem a system for 100 years of outcome

120,000,000 killed by socialism since 1917.


View attachment 2527
You can do whatever you want if you assume that everyone who died while Mao and Stalin were ruling, died because of them!
Hitler might have some basis in fact, because he openly declared a desire to exterminate 'undesirables' who didn't leave Germany before he even became Chancellor, and was writing what turned out as Mein Kampf from his jail cell.

But, I know the 60+million deaths number attributed to Stalin is a lie propagated and added to over time because he only has a few defenders who try to correct the record, while western anti-communist propaganda of the past century, and also leftist academics in the west..who are mostly anarchists and Trotskyites have their own reasons to portray their version of 'everything going fine until Stalin arrived!' Since the fall of communism in the Eastern Bloc, the new 'democracies' have added to the total...blaming Stalin and the Soviets for war-deaths, and every death caused by famine after WWI in between and after WWII, along with killings done by Nazi-affiliated militias in eastern Europe.

On the other hand, where are murders committed by capitalism? Genocidal wars for profit, murderous dictators installed in most third world countries to maintain the flow of resources to western markets and debts burdened onto the poor and malnourished of the world,.....

A hungry world: Lots of food, in too few places
"We don't have food shortage problem," said Emelie Peine, a professor of international politics and economy at the University of Puget Sound.​
"What we have is a distribution problem and an income problem," Peine said. "People aren't getting the food, ... and even if [they] did, they don't have enough money to buy it."​
If there is enough food, a major problem causing scarcity is what we do with it, said Roger Johnson, president of the National Farmers Union, an advocacy group for U.S. farmers.​
"Something in the area of up to half of all that's produced is wasted," said Johnson, who runs his own farm in North Dakota.​
"In the undeveloped world, the waste happens before the food gets to people, from lack of roads and proper storage facilities, and the food rots," Johnson said. "In the developed world, it's the staggering amount of food that's thrown out after it gets to our plates."​
Or, this is what happens when you have a global economic system that prevents people from doing what they always did- growing their own food, and makes them grow cash crops for foreign markets, while they have to depend on food imports to survive. This is what happens when you turn food into a commodity for profit, instead of a necessity of life! Half the food produced is wasted because capitalism is not a system that's intended to meet people's basic needs! Why should the NGO crowd be so surprised when it doesn't? And should it be considered an international crowd to set up and run a system that's designed to leave a certain percentage of people to starve?
 
Sep 2018
6,679
1,112
cleveland ohio
#15
You can do whatever you want if you assume that everyone who died while Mao and Stalin were ruling, died because of them!
Hitler might have some basis in fact, because he openly declared a desire to exterminate 'undesirables' who didn't leave Germany before he even became Chancellor, and was writing what turned out as Mein Kampf from his jail cell.

But, I know the 60+million deaths number attributed to Stalin is a lie propagated and added to over time because he only has a few defenders who try to correct the record, while western anti-communist propaganda of the past century, and also leftist academics in the west..who are mostly anarchists and Trotskyites have their own reasons to portray their version of 'everything going fine until Stalin arrived!' Since the fall of communism in the Eastern Bloc, the new 'democracies' have added to the total...blaming Stalin and the Soviets for war-deaths, and every death caused by famine after WWI in between and after WWII, along with killings done by Nazi-affiliated militias in eastern Europe.

On the other hand, where are murders committed by capitalism? Genocidal wars for profit, murderous dictators installed in most third world countries to maintain the flow of resources to western markets and debts burdened onto the poor and malnourished of the world,.....

A hungry world: Lots of food, in too few places
"We don't have food shortage problem," said Emelie Peine, a professor of international politics and economy at the University of Puget Sound.​
"What we have is a distribution problem and an income problem," Peine said. "People aren't getting the food, ... and even if [they] did, they don't have enough money to buy it."​
If there is enough food, a major problem causing scarcity is what we do with it, said Roger Johnson, president of the National Farmers Union, an advocacy group for U.S. farmers.​
"Something in the area of up to half of all that's produced is wasted," said Johnson, who runs his own farm in North Dakota.​
"In the undeveloped world, the waste happens before the food gets to people, from lack of roads and proper storage facilities, and the food rots," Johnson said. "In the developed world, it's the staggering amount of food that's thrown out after it gets to our plates."​
Or, this is what happens when you have a global economic system that prevents people from doing what they always did- growing their own food, and makes them grow cash crops for foreign markets, while they have to depend on food imports to survive. This is what happens when you turn food into a commodity for profit, instead of a necessity of life! Half the food produced is wasted because capitalism is not a system that's intended to meet people's basic needs! Why should the NGO crowd be so surprised when it doesn't? And should it be considered an international crowd to set up and run a system that's designed to leave a certain percentage of people to starve?
hitler was bad but he wasnt a socialist
 
Dec 2016
5,078
2,606
Canada
#16
hitler was bad but he wasnt a socialist
I know! The Party name "National Socialist" was just a contrivance to win over as many working class Germans as possible at a time when the Communist Party was stronger in Germany. As soon as they got in power, they disbanded trade unions. It's amazing that the religious right is downplaying the Nazi deathcount and adding numbers to totals for Communist countries!