Invasion of people headed to the US brings many questions. To start...does anyone actually

Feb 2014
2,434
1,131
Oregon
That's true, but the big difference is not the body count, it's how the people live! How much energy and resources they use and consume! So, I imagine LA is much like what has happened here in the Niagara Peninsula in the past 20 years...as new immigrants find the big cities like Toronto already too overcrowded, too hard to get around in...even with public transit, and much too expensive...with real estate prices soaring. So developers in surrounding areas that are within a 2 hour highway commute (real estate agents always give prospective buyers the most optimal numbers for drive time) have no doubt, bought off mayors and local city and regional councilors to rubberstamp all their suburban developments....many of which are going right in previously protected forests and wetlands, to buy $500,000 homes that they consider a bargain compared to what Toronto and the immediate Toronto area is asking!

So, urban development has required cutting down more and more trees-- cutting wildlife populations and forcing them into smaller and more isolated enclaves. And, of course they all need cars! Just as I did when I wanted to stay in our hometown and drive 50 miles to work every day. It's a toxic setup that I'm glad I was able to escape from by moving close to work....in a neighborhood that was not popular about 18 years ago! And this is Not how most people living in the tropic zone have lived...at least up until transnational capitalists have invaded their homelands with foreign buyers starting cash-cropping ventures and new, low wage industry in the cities.

Whatever happens, the demographic trends all over the world indicate that the 'population explosion' was a temporary crisis caused by the sudden cut in infant death rates in societies which still were geared towards high birth rates to ensure a family would have enough children to carry on and look after their elders late in life. World populations will decline gradually after the middle of this century (if we were actually doing something about climate change and destruction of wild habitats) OR it will happen fast in population crashes, because of the sudden declines in food-especially grain production that will happen as more and more prime grain-growing regions in the world have depleted their soil and mined phosphates (essential for artificial fertilizer production) are almost gone also.

Ouch, ouch, ouch, you know too much, even the phosphate problem! Wow, I am impressed. Once that phosphate supply is exhausted we will not be able to feed the world and hopefully, our population will decline before then. Another major problem is land loss due to rising sea levels. You did not mention the deforestation that is still happening, increasing the global warming problem. Where there are humans, there has to be supplies for their homes and businesses and we are competing for the products we need and the minerals we need and this brings on environmental destruction and war.

Immediately, dirt farming can no longer sustain the lives of the people who are migrating or are being bombed out of their homes. Overcrowding is causing the mass migrations. It is already too late to avoid the problem. The problem is with is us now. Technology increased the number of people that can be supported, but that technology requires money and poor nations can not develop fast enough. That is why people are moving to regions with developed technology. Make sense? They do not have the technology and organization to provide for the mass of the people resulting from keeping children alive.
 
Likes: imaginethat
Sep 2015
769
183
earth
Open borders now!! This capitalist nation has caused pain and suffering for the entire world. Its time the private property of the USA is seized and redistributed to the disenfranchised minorities who come here as reparations.
 
Likes: Athena
Feb 2014
2,434
1,131
Oregon
Central America. The attitude is and has been that the land and people have been exploited by US business interests and "protected" by the US military for a long time, far before any Soviet influence in the region, and more.

This exploitative attitude paved the way for folks like Che, and Ortega.
Thank you for that clear explanation.

I have known many geologists and it is true. We do go around the world in search of mineral resources and then we buy the right to extract the mineral resource and usually all the money goes to the national leader, not the people. That is why some countries insist on a socialist form of government, so everyone gets a share of the national wealth, and when a country does that, we come in with our military force, or perhaps only military training and arms, so the peasants can be repressed, and our great capitalism makes sure the wealth is not spread. Extracting minerals is usually environmental destructive and this destroys the health of the people and their land, leaving them with nothing, while the capitalist profit. Ethical people who are a geologist are forced by their conscience to find another to earn money other than telling the capitalist where the minerals are. It is a shame that as a democracy we are so ignorant of how we have such good lives and think it right to defend our border from those people with more military force.
 
Feb 2014
2,434
1,131
Oregon
Right to Left, the more I think on the problem the more I want to argue overpopulation is the problem. The people are fleeing areas that where there was very little relative deprivation. That is because of a lack of development, not even the richest people had much more than the poorest. Maybe a handful of people in a town had wealth but lack of development kept life in the town on a low tech and personal level without the distance between people created by bureaucracy. There are two things going on here.. without technology there is not a great difference between the standard of living for the rich and poor. Second, we are like one big family, not opposing tribes as we become when a significant number of people become wealthy, and their wealth depends on our cheap labor and our need for wht they have to sell.

Have I said that well? Do you see the slip from being as one big family to being as opposing tribes, one having power and the other prevented from having power? It is a combination of things that lead to migration- knowing life can be better, and not enough opportunity to be economical mobile, but being stuck at the bottom with not place to go but out of the community. This is an overpopulation problem. It does not exist where there is enough good land for most people to earn a relatively good living and help their family that may not own land.
 
Nov 2013
2,073
858
NM
Ouch, ouch, ouch, you know too much, even the phosphate problem! Wow, I am impressed. Once that phosphate supply is exhausted we will not be able to feed the world and hopefully, our population will decline before then. Another major problem is land loss due to rising sea levels. You did not mention the deforestation that is still happening, increasing the global warming problem. Where there are humans, there has to be supplies for their homes and businesses and we are competing for the products we need and the minerals we need and this brings on environmental destruction and war.

Yah, the organic solution was bat & other guano - see The wizard and the prophet : two remarkable scientists and their dueling visions to shape tomorrow's world / Charles C. Mann, ©2018, Alfred A. Knopf (brilliant exposition on guano, artificial nitrogen). For a long time - since the 1950s, hydrogen for fertilizer comes from natural gas in the US (nitrogen from the air). I'm not sure about the rest of the World. Guano is still mined in S. America, & coal or oil can be used as a source for hydrogen - but natural gas contains more hydrogen than those two, & processing the alternatives is more complex (requires more equipment & engineering) & is therefore more expensive than using natural gas.

@ the current rates, the price for natural gas has been rising. The real stumbling block is that there isn't enough acreage to plant the crops needed directly for food for people & to feed the livestock for meat, eggs, milk, cheese. Something will have to give - probably we'll go to bioengineered meat, maybe milk - & from the latter we can make cheese. There are firms looking into that now, trying to bring costs down to something reasonable.
 
Likes: Athena
Dec 2016
3,694
1,909
Canada
Ouch, ouch, ouch, you know too much, even the phosphate problem! Wow, I am impressed. Once that phosphate supply is exhausted we will not be able to feed the world and hopefully, our population will decline before then. Another major problem is land loss due to rising sea levels. You did not mention the deforestation that is still happening, increasing the global warming problem. Where there are humans, there has to be supplies for their homes and businesses and we are competing for the products we need and the minerals we need and this brings on environmental destruction and war.

Immediately, dirt farming can no longer sustain the lives of the people who are migrating or are being bombed out of their homes. Overcrowding is causing the mass migrations. It is already too late to avoid the problem. The problem is with is us now. Technology increased the number of people that can be supported, but that technology requires money and poor nations can not develop fast enough. That is why people are moving to regions with developed technology. Make sense? They do not have the technology and organization to provide for the mass of the people resulting from keeping children alive.
Thanks...I guess, but I'm not sure whether 'knowing too much' is a good thing or not! Sometimes I think it means I read too much...about too many different things, and all that gives me is the opportunity to see the massive superstorm coming that even 'educated' people are oblivious too because they specialize and restrict their interests and sources of information so much. I know you've met more than a few of that type here also!

It would be great to see the solutions...many of which are easily available/just not convenient for the interests of global capitalism, but I lose my cool most on environment threads than I do on the usual political bickering or economic theorizing because the same bullshit, vacuous arguments are recycled over and over again to give faint hope to the masses while the destruction goes on at a faster and faster pace.

The phosphate crunch that's closing in, along topsoil loss, and similar declines in groundwater for irrigation( even in America--Oglala Aquifer could be effectively drained by 2030) means that Big Ag ends one way or the other! It's incredible and so absurd that we, as a global community have allowed the proponents and supporters of mechanized, extractive agriculture to literally 'shit in the nest' while bragging about higher and higher yields that have "solved" the Food Crisis that had people focused on 50 years ago. The population doubled, food production....mostly crappy grain production along with more industrially produced meat.....more than doubled....problem solved! Not so fast! Because the fundamental conditions needed for growing food have been allowed to dwindle while yields keep increasing.

What's worse is that IT Doesn't Have To Be This Way! If population growth in many parts of the world hadn't been incentivized by political and business leaders a half century ago, populations in fast-growing regions of Latin America, Africa and Asia would have stabilized rather than growing in a situation of constant famine! The big surge in population was almost entirely due to the arrival of vaccines and medicines to prevent most infant and early childhood deaths. It takes time for cultures to adapt to these kinds of changes. So, women who typically would have seen it as a duty to family and posterity to get pregnant every year, because at least half of their children would die before reaching age of five, all of a sudden were left wondering what to do with 8 or 12 kids at home and how to feed them all!

As for agriculture, until after WWII, there was virtually no such thing as factory farming like we have it today! Traditionally, farmers used techniques like the ones my father and mother helped with when they grew up on their respective farms in the Maritimes and Michigan respectively. Crops were rotated on a regular basis; farm animals - chickens, sheep, goats and cattle were set out to graze in the fields that were left fallow to rebuild the soil. These methods when used responsibly by observant farmers made food-growing permanently sustainable, and that's why so many of their methods are adapted by the modern permaculture movement of mostly city-dwellers or former urbanites who are trying to learn how to re-invent the wheel!

The problem is Big Ag is still a multi-multi-billion dollar a year industry around the globe. The corporations that play the most foul and duplicitous roles in the function of Big Ag only know one way to move in --- Forward! Destroying more forests for plantation farming of cash crops, applying more and more fertilizers until the ingredients completely run out, creating new GMO patented non-reproducing seeds and spraying the crops with pesticides that are toxic to consumers and building up in the tissues of our bodies....while providing negligible increases in yield...it's all just about the money....at least until the party's over and the looters of the environment have already left through the side exits to head for their bunkers and New Zealand hideaways where they think they can wait out the apocalypse and crawl out of their shells to retake a destroyed and empty planet to do it all over again! At least that's what they think of the future!

On the local issue of refugees forced into migration because their homelands are being destroyed, it makes me sick when rightwing sociopaths call them Invaders and refer to the marchers as a Caravan....an obvious Arabic reference intended to infer a hostile invasion! This is part of the cost of compartmentalizing issues and placing them in separate boxes, instead of considering that these are just people in a crisis, and a crisis largely- Very Largely caused by US corporate and foreign policy! So, the balanced view would be "we've caused this mess/we have to help these people," but that's not how Trumpanzees see the world or any issue!
 
Likes: hoosier88
Feb 2014
2,434
1,131
Oregon
On the local issue of refugees forced into migration because their homelands are being destroyed, it makes me sick when rightwing sociopaths call them Invaders and refer to the marchers as a Caravan....an obvious Arabic reference intended to infer a hostile invasion! This is part of the cost of compartmentalizing issues and placing them in separate boxes, instead of considering that these are just people in a crisis, and a crisis largely- Very Largely caused by US corporate and foreign policy! So, the balanced view would be "we've caused this mess/we have to help these people," but that's not how Trumpanzees see the world or any issue!
While everything you said is important, this last paragraph is more specific to the topic. YES, IT IS THE WORDS USED TO EVOKE A DEHUMANIZED RESPONSE THAT IS SO OFFENSIVE! Not only are these words about dehumanizing people, but the story of what capitalism has done to their environments is not part of our news. This not something said in articles about mining that people looking for investment opportunity read. You have to be looking for information like this to find it.

How U.S. demand for gold jewelry and bullion is poisoning children in the Amazon

“We know that mercury exposure isn’t only concentrated in mining zones. It’s also in areas that are very far away,” said Ernesto Ortíz, who is overseeing the study of pregnant women and their offspring in Peru with the Duke Global Health Institute. “And it’s causing long-term problems that are irreversible. It’s condemning children for life.”
When we discuss capitalism and morality this is something that needs to be mentioned. This is the kind of crisis our industrialist are creating in South America. It is true the development of mining creates wealth and this can improve the people's standard of living, but that improvement is not laze faire capitalism. It is socialism that defends the people and takes care of their future, right? CAPITALIST WHO UNINTENTIONALLY OR INTENTIONAL IGNORES THE PEOPLE'S NEEDS AND THEN USES WORDS TO DEHUMANIZE THEM, IS THE ENEMY OF ALL MANKIND. WHEN THE BOTTOM LINE IS MONEY WE SHOULD SEE THE FACE OF EVIL.
 
Likes: right to left
Feb 2014
2,434
1,131
Oregon
Yah, the organic solution was bat & other guano - see The wizard and the prophet : two remarkable scientists and their dueling visions to shape tomorrow's world / Charles C. Mann, ©2018, Alfred A. Knopf (brilliant exposition on guano, artificial nitrogen). For a long time - since the 1950s, hydrogen for fertilizer comes from natural gas in the US (nitrogen from the air). I'm not sure about the rest of the World. Guano is still mined in S. America, & coal or oil can be used as a source for hydrogen - but natural gas contains more hydrogen than those two, & processing the alternatives is more complex (requires more equipment & engineering) & is therefore more expensive than using natural gas.

@ the current rates, the price for natural gas has been rising. The real stumbling block is that there isn't enough acreage to plant the crops needed directly for food for people & to feed the livestock for meat, eggs, milk, cheese. Something will have to give - probably we'll go to bioengineered meat, maybe milk - & from the latter we can make cheese. There are firms looking into that now, trying to bring costs down to something reasonable.
That is nice explanation of what gas and oil have to do with getting nitrogen in fertilizer. However, we were speaking of phosphorus and need to speak potassium as well. Morocco has almost half the world's supply of phosphate and when this supply is exhausted we are in trouble. While there is phosphorus in other places the quantity is not great enough to meet commercial needs.

Every living cell must have potassium and phosphorus. Fortunately, most soil has adequate potassium, but it remains an important addition in fertilizer because we use the same soil over and over again. Canada is the best supplier of Potassium.
 
Apr 2013
33,816
22,922
Left coast
The real question is why the deplorables can't see how badly they have been played. Election over, no more fear mongering of about the invading hordes.

They are abject fools.
 
Likes: Clara007