Is fascism right or left

imaginethat

Forum Staff
Oct 2010
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Colorado
#81
Even that's a bit arbitrary. We can agree that murder is wrong, but we justify murder in self-defense, sanctioned executions and war.
True, but....

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven.
 
Apr 2014
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Heart of America
#83
True, but....

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven.
Nonetheless, when it comes to quantifying something for measuring or putting it into law, it’s not always cut and dried.
 
Dec 2016
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#84
Of course you do.
Okay, it's really simple and doesn't need to go on any chart! Fascism is the final, desperate turn of a late-stage capitalist system when it fears that unrest or an uprising will overthrow the ruling class and take/or destroy their wealth- that's it!

And that is why so called 'democracies' of the world have long tolerated fascist regimes which know their place...i.e. they don't attempt to expand outward and seize territory and/or wealth of the global powers. And that's why Franco and the asshole who ran Portugal for decades post-WWII( even maintaining Portugal's colonial empire), and the US-installed military dictators around the world are left alone as long as they keep their economies privatized and taking loans from the World Bank or IMF. Compare that with how the US has treated social democrat/let alone socialist nations in the third world! Especially after the fall of the Soviet Uniion, when it was no longer necessary to tolerate any constraints on imperial overreach.

As for Germany and Mussolini's Italy, there were too many Nazis who were able to move to the west and live without fear( except from vengeful Nazi hunters) to argue that fascists...even Nazis faced the equivalent persecution that a suspected communist would face. And when I was young, we lived next door to an Italian immigrant who admitted to being an officer in the Italian Army when they invaded and occupied Ethiopia prior to the outbreak of WWII.
 
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Oct 2010
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Colorado
#85
Nonetheless, when it comes to quantifying something for measuring or putting it into law, it’s not always cut and dried.
Agreed. My point is: Those who declare themselves to be Christian cannot under any circumstances draw from the teachings of Jesus Christ any justifications for murder, whether in self-defense, sanctioned executions or war.

The notion of "just war" and other "christian" rationalizations for killing and murder were later added.
 
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Apr 2014
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Heart of America
#87
Okay, it's really simple and doesn't need to go on any chart! Fascism is the final, desperate turn of a late-stage capitalist system when it fears that unrest or an uprising will overthrow the ruling class and take/or destroy their wealth- that's it!....
Seriously, how old are you? What are they teaching in schools these days about the causes of WWII? 1920s Germany was the complete opposite of a "late-stage capitalist system". It was devastated by WWI, losing most of a generation of men, then held financially accountable for the war itself which was then further worsened by the Great Depression. Like Socialists in Russia (and Euro monarchists), Germans turned toward the idea of a central government running the nation for the betterment of all. They gave into tyranny.

When hyperinflation drove Germans to use money as kindling
In 1914, the exchange rate of the German mark to the American dollar was about 4.2 to one. Nine years later, it was 4.2 trillion to one.

The out-of-control inflation began somewhat mildly during World War I, as the German government printed unbacked currency and borrowed money to finance military expenditures. The strategy was to eventually pay off the debts by seizing resource-rich territories and imposing reparations on the vanquished Allies.

But then Germany lost the war and ended up with massive debts and reparations to the Allies to be paid under the Treaty of Versailles.

Inflation crept up slowly at first, before accelerating rapidly in late 1922. The exchange rate ballooned from 2,000 marks per dollar to 20,000 to a million and beyond in just a few months, riding on a growing wave of economic panic and mistrust.

 
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Dec 2016
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Canada
#88
Agreed. My point is: Those who declare themselves to be Christian cannot under any circumstances draw from the teachings of Jesus Christ any justifications for murder, whether in self-defense, sanctioned executions or war.

The notion of "just war" and other "christian" rationalizations for killing and murder were later added.
Yes, much later in fact! I think if was Thomas Aquinas who first cobbled together a Just War theory for Christianity, and back then -- people took their religion seriously! So, if Jesus....according to his gospel quotes preaches uniformly pacifist messages...turn the other cheek and offers no resistance to the Roman soldiers who have come to take him away, and declares "my kingdom is no part of this world",then later, when Christianity had to go through a metamorphosis -- from millennial cult...expecting the End of Days at any time to having to form permanent institutions.....church hierarchies and telling followers what sort of government Christians should and should not support; so they had to dust off whatever scrolls were left over from heretic Greek philosophers like Plato and Aristotle...and a few Stoic philosophers as well, to try to draft a complete philosophy of life, and that would end up with Christians having to decide what to do in the event of war.
 
Dec 2016
4,116
2,125
Canada
#89
Seriously, how old are you?
Older than you, asshole!
What are they teaching in schools these days about the causes of WWII? 1920s Germany was the complete opposite of a "late-stage capitalist system". It was devastated by WWI, losing most of a generation of men, then held financially accountable for the war itself which was then further worsened by the Great Depression. Like Socialists in Russia (and Euro monarchists), Germans turned toward the idea of a central government running the nation for the betterment of all. They gave into tyranny.

When hyperinflation drove Germans to use money as kindling
In 1914, the exchange rate of the German mark to the American dollar was about 4.2 to one. Nine years later, it was 4.2 trillion to one.

The out-of-control inflation began somewhat mildly during World War I, as the German government printed unbacked currency and borrowed money to finance military expenditures. The strategy was to eventually pay off the debts by seizing resource-rich territories and imposing reparations on the vanquished Allies.

But then Germany lost the war and ended up with massive debts and reparations to the Allies to be paid under the Treaty of Versailles.

Inflation crept up slowly at first, before accelerating rapidly in late 1922. The exchange rate ballooned from 2,000 marks per dollar to 20,000 to a million and beyond in just a few months, riding on a growing wave of economic panic and mistrust.

Now, explain to me how all of your longwinded retreading of the collapse of the Weimar Republich (which conveniently overlooks the added-on debts by the League of Nations members for war reparations) was not proof of the failure of German capitalism? Kaiser Bill deliberately led Germany into war because England at the time, was worried about a rising empire threatening its control of international trade and commerce and wasn't interested in sharing! Prior to the outbreak of the War, England had been following the ruinously expensive policy of building two warships for every one built by the German Government. It was just a matter of time before war would happen and Bill wanted to choose the time!

Germany had a capitalist economy which financed its war effort by borrowing from international bankers and being unable to pay off its debts. And yet you think that's different than the natural pattern of every capitalist economy: to overproduce products and finance growth with increasing the money supply and new debt obligations. Where is the US Federal Debt today...if I might ask? How does the US Government plan to pay back all the $Trillions borrowed to expand the war machine and still pay for the growing numbers of Social Security recipients in coming years? That's how empires have collapsed in the past, yet you think it's something unique and capitalism can just continue on forever! The only way that could happen in theory is if Planet Earth could keep expanding in size also and producing more and more renewable and non-renewable resources for human populations demanding an increasingly large supply of finished goods.....and keep reprocessing all of the wastes created by human economies let's not forget! If capitalism cannot be sustainable, then it would make sense to create an economy that is sustainable over the long term.
 

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