# Is randomness real?

#### webguy4

Consider billiard balls on a table. If one ball rolls into another at a known speed and strikes at a known measurement distance from the center mass, we can predict pretty well the direction and speed each ball will take after the collision. If 3 balls are involved the math becomes much more difficult. If we add spin on a wobbly axis to the equation we get past the point of where human reckoning can compute.

But just because the math is beyond our skills doesn’t mean that the sequences are random. It only means we are restricted to the descriptions we call randomness because of our limitations.

#### noonereal

Randomness is nonsense.

Hope this helps!

#### webguy4

suppose we throw marbles of identical size and weight but of differing colors into a bag. Then we reach into the bag and pull out marbles one at a time. The order of the colors would appear to be random.

But the randomness is a trick we play on ourselves by using the bag as a blindfold.

#### RNG

Forum Staff
Your first post was reasonable. The second is plain wrong.

Pulling marbles out of a bag is the same as the bingo balls coming out of a bingo thingy, whatever they are called. And the same as are used for many lottery number draws.

There has been tons of mathematical analysis done on them to show it is in fact random.

Did you not do the coin flipping test at school?

• Clara007

#### TupSum

Consider billiard balls on a table. If one ball rolls into another at a known speed and strikes at a known measurement distance from the center mass, we can predict pretty well the direction and speed each ball will take after the collision. If 3 balls are involved the math becomes much more difficult. If we add spin on a wobbly axis to the equation we get past the point of where human reckoning can compute.

But just because the math is beyond our skills doesn’t mean that the sequences are random. It only means we are restricted to the descriptions we call randomness because of our limitations.

"Pretty well" is the key word. When a ball strikes another ball, what happens is that the electrons of the outer atoms of the other ball repel each other, which is the force of the impact. It could theoretically be proven that there is some uncertainty in the position of the electrons that would result in some uncertainty about the impact. It's just that it averages because of the large numbers of atoms involved.

#### webguy4

Your first post was reasonable. The second is plain wrong.

Pulling marbles out of a bag is the same as the bingo balls coming out of a bingo thingy, whatever they are called. And the same as are used for many lottery number draws.

There has been tons of mathematical analysis done on them to show it is in fact random.

Did you not do the coin flipping test at school?
There are mathematical tests for characteristics of randomness, but no absolute proof.

#### webguy4

"Pretty well" is the key word. When a ball strikes another ball, what happens is that the electrons of the outer atoms of the other ball repel each other, which is the force of the impact. It could theoretically be proven that there is some uncertainty in the position of the electrons that would result in some uncertainty about the impact. It's just that it averages because of the large numbers of atoms involved.
Is it possible if the mathematics of every electron and every atom were known, then the math could be perfectly predicted?

#### webguy4

Uncertainty is just another way of saying “unknown”.

#### TupSum

Is it possible if the mathematics of every electron and every atom were known, then the math could be perfectly predicted?

Our current theories forbid that:

Uncertainty principle - Wikipedia

The reality on a very small level is actually hidden from you until you make a measurement, pretty much in the same way as the moon when you are not looking at it.

#### goober

On a large scale, everything can be predicted by Newtonian physics. But on a quantum scale there are random events, positions of particles aren't exact, they are averaged.

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