Rethinking Public Education

Dec 2013
33,604
19,298
Beware of watermelons
#31
Little kids do that voluntarily?

More like mommy and/or daddy forcibly indoctrinating the kid.
What are you implying here? That what the state desires and its current values should supersede those of the childrens family?
 
Dec 2015
16,065
14,932
Arizona
#33
All that being said, I'm in favor of "charter schools" as we call them, with some strong caveates and applied regulations. This preference could be diluted or eliminated with some changes in the public school system.

I'm talking the situation in the two westernmost Canadian provinces because those are the ones I'm familiar with. But I have gotten the impression that most US states do the same things in their public system.

Three changes I'd make immediately are to get back to flunking the non-performers, being able to expel the shitheads and not having special needs kids integrated into regular classrooms.

And probably others after some study.


Not sure how this works in Canada, R, but in the U.S. Charter Schools ARE public schools started by parents, community leaders, social entrepreneurs, businesses, teachers, school districts, and municipalities. Some are non-profit and some are definitely FOR-profit. They are funded the same way as public schools and are tuition free. Charter schools are also eligible for federal funding, depending on their special needs students.

Teacher salaries are often much less in charter schools. State certification requirements for public charter school teachers vary. Some states require them to have the same teacher certification and qualifications as other public school teachers, while other states have more flexible requirements.

Charter schools are often chosen because they can be neighborhood schools where children can walk to school. Charter schools can be STEM schools or may feature art and music. Some of these schools implement a lottery for enrollment.
 
Likes: 1 person
May 2018
5,416
3,473
Chicago
#34
The correct answer is that there is a huge market for private education by parents who want a much better education for their kids, better quality teachers, and a better quality administrative staff.

What students will not get in a private school, forced indoctrination: forced diversity, counter productive government interference, violence, apathtic and SJW teachers, administrative non-treaching staff out of proportion to teaching staff, brain-dead school boards, etc., etc.
Yeah getting to know people who are different from you sure is terrible. :roll:
 
Apr 2013
37,238
25,395
La La Land North
#35
Not sure how this works in Canada, R, but in the U.S. Charter Schools ARE public schools started by parents, community leaders, social entrepreneurs, businesses, teachers, school districts, and municipalities. Some are non-profit and some are definitely FOR-profit. They are funded the same way as public schools and are tuition free. Charter schools are also eligible for federal funding, depending on their special needs students.

Teacher salaries are often much less in charter schools. State certification requirements for public charter school teachers vary. Some states require them to have the same teacher certification and qualifications as other public school teachers, while other states have more flexible requirements.

Charter schools are often chosen because they can be neighborhood schools where children can walk to school. Charter schools can be STEM schools or may feature art and music. Some of these schools implement a lottery for enrollment.
I was wrong. It's much different here. Charter schools still have to maintain the exact same curriculum as the public schools but they are separate. Most are non-union. And most pay teachers more than the public system. I don't know if it is mandate or not but I am not aware of any that are for profit. In fact all that I am aware of are specifically not-for-profit, which gives them tax breaks. And there is no fed involvement at all.

Then above the province wide curriculum, they can specialize. In Calgary there was one renowned for its music programs and so on.

But they can be very selective about who they let in. And they, unlike the public system can and do expel the troublemakers. And they do flunk kids. They also fire nonperforming teachers.

And I'm not aware of any that integrate special needs kids with them.
 
Dec 2015
16,065
14,932
Arizona
#36
I was wrong. It's much different here. Charter schools still have to maintain the exact same curriculum as the public schools but they are separate. Most are non-union. And most pay teachers more than the public system. I don't know if it is mandate or not but I am not aware of any that are for profit. In fact all that I am aware of are specifically not-for-profit, which gives them tax breaks. And there is no fed involvement at all.

Then above the province wide curriculum, they can specialize. In Calgary there was one renowned for its music programs and so on.

But they can be very selective about who they let in. And they, unlike the public system can and do expel the troublemakers. And they do flunk kids. They also fire nonperforming teachers.

And I'm not aware of any that integrate special needs kids with them.

I figured there would be some differences in Canada...but there are some similarities. U.S. Charters are SUPPOSED to be held to the same standards (curriculum/state standards as public schools) but I really don't think the oversight is the same. I think U.S. charters can be very selective.

I wanted to address the "flunking". Basically, holding back a student is the parent's choice and completely out of the hands of the teacher. The preference is that the child be held back BEFORE 4th grade and usually eligible for special help/tutoring, but at the end of the year the parent can refuse to hold back the child. If the teacher/principal insists, the parent will just pull the child OUT of that school and enroll them in another school. The same happens in cases where the student is a behavior problem. The parent PULLS them out of one school and enrolls them in another...rinse repeat.

First year teachers are probationary for 3 years and can be fired without cause--union members or not.
Underperforming teachers are given written warnings, a probation period, a mentor, administrative scrutiny through "visitations" and specific conditions (approval of lesson plans, etc). The idea is to assist that struggling teacher before firing.
 
Dec 2013
33,604
19,298
Beware of watermelons
#37
I was wrong. It's much different here. Charter schools still have to maintain the exact same curriculum as the public schools but they are separate. Most are non-union. And most pay teachers more than the public system. I don't know if it is mandate or not but I am not aware of any that are for profit. In fact all that I am aware of are specifically not-for-profit, which gives them tax breaks. And there is no fed involvement at all.

Then above the province wide curriculum, they can specialize. In Calgary there was one renowned for its music programs and so on.

But they can be very selective about who they let in. And they, unlike the public system can and do expel the troublemakers. And they do flunk kids. They also fire nonperforming teachers.

And I'm not aware of any that integrate special needs kids with them.

Both my kids went to "charter" schools. (There is also another term but it escapes me now)

Way better than your average "public school" the kids were allowed to work at their own pace and they use a mentor type program mixing different age groups (grade levels) together. The only downfall to this is they ran out of work for my kids in everything besides literature and mathematics because they went thru the curriculum. But by then there is a group of kids who have been working together for years and they take on leadership projects, and other more creative stuff.
 
Likes: 1 person
Dec 2013
33,604
19,298
Beware of watermelons
#38
I figured there would be some differences in Canada...but there are some similarities. U.S. Charters are SUPPOSED to be held to the same standards (curriculum/state standards as public schools) but I really don't think the oversight is the same. I think U.S. charters can be very selective.

I wanted to address the "flunking". Basically, holding back a student is the parent's choice and completely out of the hands of the teacher. The preference is that the child be held back BEFORE 4th grade and usually eligible for special help/tutoring, but at the end of the year the parent can refuse to hold back the child. If the teacher/principal insists, the parent will just pull the child OUT of that school and enroll them in another school. The same happens in cases where the student is a behavior problem. The parent PULLS them out of one school and enrolls them in another...rinse repeat.

First year teachers are probationary for 3 years and can be fired without cause--union members or not.
Underperforming teachers are given written warnings, a probation period, a mentor, administrative scrutiny through "visitations" and specific conditions (approval of lesson plans, etc). The idea is to assist that struggling teacher before firing.


I always wondered how i made it thru elementary school. I don't believe i ever did any homework.
 
Likes: 1 person
Dec 2006
26,461
11,563
New Haven, CT
#39
I always wondered how i made it thru elementary school. I don't believe i ever did any homework.
I skipped two elementary grades - 3rd and 5th.

In high school, I rarely did schoolwork and skipped a LOT of classes, but always showed up for quizzes and tests and final exams.

I graduated salutatorian.

I got to college and had a really rough time because (a) I was two years younger than ANYBODY else, and (b) I never learned how to study. And I really needed to in college. It took me the entire freshman year to really be able to go to school and have a life. That first year I did NOTHING but schoolwork.
 

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