Spanking

Dec 2016
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AND THERE IT IS! The arrogance of some people! Those who think they are the "KNOW ALL and END ALL" of how to do things the "RIGHT" way.
Know-it-alls are those irritating people who act as if they are experts on every topic — even when evidence and behaviors prove otherwise.

You mean like the linked article in the OP that you never read apparently? Spanking Is Ineffective and Harmful to Children, Pediatricians’ Group Says

If you're going to jump on your highhorse and go into battle against 'knowitalls' remember that pediatricians, behavioral psychologists who specialize in early childhood studies and other 'experts' who collect the data and issue the studies have been saying the same thing for the past 50 years: physical punishment does not help/but instead hurts children! The same conclusions were being told to us moderns by anthropologists like Ashley Montague....who observed still existing 'primitive' cultures that existed in the world, and found that non-violent childrearing....along with a multitude of caregivers(not just mom and dad!) were key factors that distinguished the generally friendly, peaceable and mentally balanced cultures with the more modern agricultural and urban environments where violent parenting was taken up as a deliberate training tool to train future warriors and 'strong' women who could defend the home....while the men were apparently away raiding and looting other settlements.....anyway.......how you care for and raise your children has a distinct and definite impact on what the child will be like when they grow up. Treat them harshly and by applying violent punishment, and they'll grow up to be either warriors or withdrawn failures if they're not up to the challenge! For me, there are already too many "warriors" running around in this world and making it a more and more dangerous place!

So, you don't like it...fine! But, unless you show your contrary evidence that "proves otherwise" put up or _____ _____!

Arguing that "I spanked my kids, and they're all fine today" or "I was spanked as a child and I'm okay," is how we got a thread here with 120 posts filled with people trying to argue that their exceptions prove the rule! I don't like to get drawn into these kinds of deeply held emotional issues, because....yes, some parents who spank their kids are okay/while some parents who don't spank their kids are hiding the fact that they are withdrawn and detached...and would rather be someplace else than looking after their children!

We get this from the cult every day because THEIR way is the only way to live. We get it from the Evangelicals because their way is the only way to express their faith. We get it from the gun worshippers because THEIR way is the only way to be safe.
It's hard for many of us to be good parents in the crazy world we live in now. Especially if we have grown up in dysfunctional families, the only thing that can save us is having the good fortune of having: a friend with a good family to spend time with and learn from; a good teacher...or other adult role model to learn from and emulate. As I said before, this is why I believe the best case scenario for modern, dysfunctional...borderline psychotic cultures are to learn from the more distant past...to community-focused cultures where the Home wasn't a prison, and the parents weren't godlike dictators with godlike power over their kids....for good or evil! No doubt this had something to do with the transition from belief in immanent gods or goddesses who are always within us and help us when called upon ---- to the Sky Daddy violent warrior gods,,,,,Yahweh being the one we are most familiar with, who...by his Old Testament descriptions is a typical drunken father, who comes home and children scatter, not knowing whether god is in a good mood, or as usual- in a bad mood and looking for a subject to vent rage upon. Yahweh had many worshippers in the land of Canaan way back then...which thanks to being a religious tradition that was written down and survived the eons, we know about today. I can imagine that Yahweh was the god created by children of alcoholics....or the ancient equivalent. And that's how children try to reinterpret the world as they grow up. If I am being beaten, I must have done something wrong, and I have to do something right to make god the father happy again,,,,,,and that's JudeoChristian philosophy in a nutshell!
But, the one key ingredient of these violent, genocidal cultures gods was a violent, genocidal culture with the need to create them and ones that used physical punishment and abuse to make their children obedient to higher authority. Physical abuse of children is just the first step in the process!


Frustration! Why can't people just live and let live? There are so many approaches to life, to love, to raising children, to living a good life......but OH NO! They must "counsel" us because they know best.
Why can't childbeaters and peaceful parenting advocates just all live together without criticizing each other! Maybe because it's either one way or another, and the choice matters when it comes to determining the way a society is after a few generations.
This is one of the things that bugs me most of Donald J Trump---his lack of humility---his self-importance--his egotism.
No one has all the answers.
Besides my telegraphic suspicions that Trump was beaten as a child, how did he invade this thread? Trump is everywhere!!!!
 
Dec 2015
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11,796
Arizona
You mean like the linked article in the OP that you never read apparently? Spanking Is Ineffective and Harmful to Children, Pediatricians’ Group Says

If you're going to jump on your highhorse and go into battle against 'knowitalls' remember that pediatricians, behavioral psychologists who specialize in early childhood studies and other 'experts' who collect the data and issue the studies have been saying the same thing for the past 50 years: physical punishment does not help/but instead hurts children! The same conclusions were being told to us moderns by anthropologists like Ashley Montague....who observed still existing 'primitive' cultures that existed in the world, and found that non-violent childrearing....along with a multitude of caregivers(not just mom and dad!) were key factors that distinguished the generally friendly, peaceable and mentally balanced cultures with the more modern agricultural and urban environments where violent parenting was taken up as a deliberate training tool to train future warriors and 'strong' women who could defend the home....while the men were apparently away raiding and looting other settlements.....anyway.......how you care for and raise your children has a distinct and definite impact on what the child will be like when they grow up. Treat them harshly and by applying violent punishment, and they'll grow up to be either warriors or withdrawn failures if they're not up to the challenge! For me, there are already too many "warriors" running around in this world and making it a more and more dangerous place!

So, you don't like it...fine! But, unless you show your contrary evidence that "proves otherwise" put up or _____ _____!

Arguing that "I spanked my kids, and they're all fine today" or "I was spanked as a child and I'm okay," is how we got a thread here with 120 posts filled with people trying to argue that their exceptions prove the rule! I don't like to get drawn into these kinds of deeply held emotional issues, because....yes, some parents who spank their kids are okay/while some parents who don't spank their kids are hiding the fact that they are withdrawn and detached...and would rather be someplace else than looking after their children!


It's hard for many of us to be good parents in the crazy world we live in now. Especially if we have grown up in dysfunctional families, the only thing that can save us is having the good fortune of having: a friend with a good family to spend time with and learn from; a good teacher...or other adult role model to learn from and emulate. As I said before, this is why I believe the best case scenario for modern, dysfunctional...borderline psychotic cultures are to learn from the more distant past...to community-focused cultures where the Home wasn't a prison, and the parents weren't godlike dictators with godlike power over their kids....for good or evil! No doubt this had something to do with the transition from belief in immanent gods or goddesses who are always within us and help us when called upon ---- to the Sky Daddy violent warrior gods,,,,,Yahweh being the one we are most familiar with, who...by his Old Testament descriptions is a typical drunken father, who comes home and children scatter, not knowing whether god is in a good mood, or as usual- in a bad mood and looking for a subject to vent rage upon. Yahweh had many worshippers in the land of Canaan way back then...which thanks to being a religious tradition that was written down and survived the eons, we know about today. I can imagine that Yahweh was the god created by children of alcoholics....or the ancient equivalent. And that's how children try to reinterpret the world as they grow up. If I am being beaten, I must have done something wrong, and I have to do something right to make god the father happy again,,,,,,and that's JudeoChristian philosophy in a nutshell!
But, the one key ingredient of these violent, genocidal cultures gods was a violent, genocidal culture with the need to create them and ones that used physical punishment and abuse to make their children obedient to higher authority. Physical abuse of children is just the first step in the process!



Why can't childbeaters and peaceful parenting advocates just all live together without criticizing each other! Maybe because it's either one way or another, and the choice matters when it comes to determining the way a society is after a few generations.

Besides my telegraphic suspicions that Trump was beaten as a child, how did he invade this thread? Trump is everywhere!!!!

NO! I did not mean: Spanking Is Ineffective and Harmful to Children, Pediatricians’ Group Says and I DID read the article.
My "rant" was about people like Spaceman (and now YOU) who come off as an authority on particular subjects, then try to convince others that YOU and only YOU have all the answers. We have a president (yes he is everywhere) who professes: I KNOW MORE THAN ALL THE GENERALS!! I was referring to people like that---NOT a specific article written by people WHO HAVE studied child-rearing and psychology.
To spank or not to spank has been an ongoing debate for decades. My definition: Spanking is the act of striking a child's buttocks with an open hand as a form of corporal punishment. Another example might be slapping a child's hand as he/she reaches for a hot stove.

I studied children all my life---have a masters in education and took any number of child psychology classes---taught thousands of children in my career--and raised TWO of my own so I think I know something about children. There is no final consensus on SPANKING (a one-time, open-handed smack on the butt) by the experts.
Just because ONE MORE STUDY out of thousands is presented HERE on DTT does not mean that study is the BE ALL and END ALL of the debate. One of the reasons for the debate is that children are not "things" that come off an assembly line. Each is completely different, even siblings in the same family. My sons are polar opposites so we dealt with them as individuals and it's a good thing we did because the "wild child" would be dead by now if we hadn't. The word "NO" meant absolutely nothing to Clara Junior.

And let me point out, that YOU are behaving exactly like YOU are the final word on parenting. YOU AREN'T.
 
Dec 2017
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AND THERE IT IS! The arrogance of some people! Those who think they are the "KNOW ALL and END ALL" of how to do things the "RIGHT" way.
Know-it-alls are those irritating people who act as if they are experts on every topic — even when evidence and behaviors prove otherwise.
@Clara007

That is beyond ironic, coming from you. I would encourage you to delve into the subject of psychological projection.
 
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I forgot to mention...as I was listening to this clip while writing another post! Always love a good takedown of Jordan Petersen....but I'm betting his biggest fan here is just waiting in ambush!
@right to left

If you enjoyed that video, I am glad to see we have a bit of overlap. The guy speaking was a Psychotherapist for 10 years, and ultimately quit after having substantial issues with the field. He is, in my view, generally pretty good about distinguishing what is "good/useful psychology" from the "manipulative/bad/counter-productive psych".
 
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Dec 2016
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NO! I did not mean: Spanking Is Ineffective and Harmful to Children, Pediatricians’ Group Says and I DID read the article.
My "rant" was about people like Spaceman (and now YOU) who come off as an authority on particular subjects, then try to convince others that YOU and only YOU have all the answers. We have a president (yes he is everywhere) who professes: I KNOW MORE THAN ALL THE GENERALS!! I was referring to people like that---NOT a specific article written by people WHO HAVE studied child-rearing and psychology.
To spank or not to spank has been an ongoing debate for decades. My definition: Spanking is the act of striking a child's buttocks with an open hand as a form of corporal punishment. Another example might be slapping a child's hand as he/she reaches for a hot stove.

I studied children all my life---have a masters in education and took any number of child psychology classes---taught thousands of children in my career--and raised TWO of my own so I think I know something about children. There is no final consensus on SPANKING (a one-time, open-handed smack on the butt) by the experts.
Just because ONE MORE STUDY out of thousands is presented HERE on DTT does not mean that study is the BE ALL and END ALL of the debate. One of the reasons for the debate is that children are not "things" that come off an assembly line. Each is completely different, even siblings in the same family. My sons are polar opposites so we dealt with them as individuals and it's a good thing we did because the "wild child" would be dead by now if we hadn't. The word "NO" meant absolutely nothing to Clara Junior.

And let me point out, that YOU are behaving exactly like YOU are the final word on parenting. YOU AREN'T.
How about a little more projection and blame-shifting! "you're going to hurt your hand touching that stove, so I'm going to hurt your hand a little less severely to somehow teach you that it's bad to touch the stove"! Maybe it works...that's not my point! The point the experts I read is that their studies show that children subjected to physical punishment in these kinds of situations don't necessarily draw the same conclusions as the punisher!

I am not acting like a final word on parenting....I only have my own examples to draw from. But, you are once again reaching for the smallest and most insignificant example of corporal punishment....so minuscule, I'm not sure whether or not the child would have even noticed it! I know I wouldn't, and I recall an example from kindergarten for reference: I don't recall a whole lot of my early childhood experiences (except for the most dramatic ones) but I recall getting spanked by my kindergarten teacher and not feeling anything. I showed her absolutely no reaction because my punishments at home were way beyond what this teacher could or would do in her classroom.

What I found out from two of my older brothers who were in the higher grades of that elementary school at the time was that they were called in to the principal's office to discuss their home situation with the principal and my kindergarten teacher, because she was so disturbed by my lack of response and suspected child abuse in our home. At that time...a time when schools still had corporal punishment, parents were rarely charged with child abuse, and no doubt educators started thinking back in the 60's....maybe there's a better way! Because kids who are hard to manage and come from abusive homes, are not benefiting from the punishments they receive at home and there's no way in hell we can one-up their abusive parents and give the child a beating that will stop whatever bad behavior they are doing at school!

Finally, since you invoked religious zealots and fundamentalists to throw at me in your last diatribe, I want to remind you that you are making their argument for them! It's the James Dobson's of this world who pose as parenting experts and have been encouraging parents and schools (this is why they hate public education btw) to go back to that old time discipline again....and keep producing more and more conservative, authoritarian, religious zealots to fill their ranks!
 
Dec 2016
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@right to left

If you enjoyed that video, I am glad to see we have a bit of overlap. The guy speaking was a Psychotherapist for 10 years, and ultimately quit after having substantial issues with the field. He is, in my view, generally pretty good about distinguishing what is "good/useful psychology" from the "manipulative/bad/counter-productive psych".
I get that! And I'm not surprised psychotherapy is filled with manipulators who are more focused on making money and grabbing attention for themselves than actually helping their patients.

For me, what I am most influenced by are trends in evidence that can be cross-referenced by research from not one, but several social sciences. And the evidence gathered in different specialties in psych along with sociology and anthropology studies is that 'violence begets violence.' I wonder why we don't already know this now, instead of needing it proven over and over again.
 
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I get that! And I'm not surprised psychotherapy is filled with manipulators who are more focused on making money and grabbing attention for themselves than actually helping their patients.
@right to left

I agree. In fact, from a recent thread about Police, I can appreciate where you are coming from there, as well. That is, in any profession, there is going to be a standard bell curve from "bad" to "good"--with a bunch of people in the middle who basically want to do the minimal amount of work and get their paycheck, while 'going with the flow', no matter how moral or immoral the 'flow'/norm is at the time. Now, for fields that inherently have power, the spectrum of "bad" to "good" will become more extreme on the edges. That is, people will be attracted to power for the influence on the world it will give them, and they could either have great intentions or be a sadist. Physically dominant sadists would be more attracted to the police force, military, bouncer, etc., while manipulatively power hungry sadists are more attracted to 'social work', teaching, etc.

Then, contrary to what one would want for the healthy functioning of a powerful system, the opposite is to be expected. That is, as a position becomes more inherently powerful, one can expect for increasingly corrupt (as well as increasingly good, on the other end) to be attracted to it. While, one would hope, a highly powerful position were heavily vetted to weed out the "bad one" and the "free floaters"--however, that is not the case.
 
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@right to left

I agree. In fact, from a recent thread about Police, I can appreciate where you are coming from there, as well. That is, in any profession, there is going to be a standard bell curve from "bad" to "good"--with a bunch of people in the middle who basically want to do the minimal amount of work and get their paycheck, while 'going with the flow', no matter how moral or immoral the 'flow'/norm is at the time. Now, for fields that inherently have power, the spectrum of "bad" to "good" will become more extreme on the edges. That is, people will be attracted to power for the influence on the world it will give them, and they could either have great intentions or be a sadist. Physically dominant sadists would be more attracted to the police force, military, bouncer, etc., while manipulatively power hungry sadists are more attracted to 'social work', teaching, etc.
That is what makes me queasy about this valorizing of police and policing: with a gun in hand, they have the power of life and death, and they have the Thin Blue Line to protect them when they act in destructive..even criminal ways! It is very, very hard in most jurisdictions to charge a cop for: drunk driving, assault, domestic abuse, drug abuse...let alone the common stuff like speeding with their own vehicles! The cop gets a free pass until it becomes a major incident. And even at that...with journalists and public officials asking why this 'rogue cop' was kept on the force in spite of past offenses for many years, it all blows over as they usually stall it out and the worse they will do is fire him or ask him to retire...depending on whether or not he wants to keep that gold-plated pension plan!

A lot of professionals may be inclined to abuse the privileges of their professions...medical especially psychological frequently make the news when some of their members are charged with sexual offenses or fraud, but policing by its very nature has so much unchecked power in it, it's almost as lucrative for the sociopath as being the elite soldier in a conflict zone!
Then, contrary to what one would want for the healthy functioning of a powerful system, the opposite is to be expected. That is, as a position becomes more inherently powerful, one can expect for increasingly corrupt (as well as increasingly good, on the other end) to be attracted to it. While, one would hope, a highly powerful position were heavily vetted to weed out the "bad one" and the "free floaters"--however, that is not the case.
Or, we could try to decriminalize a lot of non-violent crimes on the books that just take young people down a path towards permanent or near-permanent incarceration, and work towards equality within our society and make the need for law enforcement less pressing than societies that are violent and feel like a literal tinderbox about to explode at any time. Most of the policing role is about protecting property/not people. And as America becomes increasing polarized by soaring wealth of a privileged elite with a large majority falling behind or falling off a cliff in some cases, the costs of increased and more brutal policing keep increasing and carving more and more out of budgets that leave less money for infrastructure, education and other needs.

Many years back, a friend of mine who had just returned from a long stay in Brazil...mostly in Rio, told me how exciting/ and how dangerous it felt to be there. Students, foreign workers, tourists were all given some coaching on how to act and go about their travels while in the country. That meant NEVER go out alone at night anywhere...if you're a tourist or playing tourist for the afternoon, have a look around before you look up and focus your camera to take a snapshot of a local site....otherwise some jackals riding up on a scooter may notice you and rob you or worse. And driving around, the image of mansions behind high walls with barbed wire on top and armed guards at the entrances was extremely unsettling. He was told that the rich families liviing on the high end sent their children to their private schools with armed guards and usually sent them overseas to finish their higher schooling and of course - university educations, because the dangers of having their kids kidnapped and held for ransom were so great. In fact, a large private school near where I used to live was one of the destinations for the wealthy in many Latin American countries to send their children to school. I never knew why...before!

I haven't even been stateside in a few years, but even the pictures on the news with cops wearing body armor, riot helmets and brandishing submachine guns whenever there is a demonstration somewhere, make me wonder what kind of country the USA has turned into while I've been away!
 
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How about a little more projection and blame-shifting! "you're going to hurt your hand touching that stove, so I'm going to hurt your hand a little less severely to somehow teach you that it's bad to touch the stove"! Maybe it works...that's not my point! The point the experts I read is that their studies show that children subjected to physical punishment in these kinds of situations don't necessarily draw the same conclusions as the punisher!

I am not acting like a final word on parenting....I only have my own examples to draw from. But, you are once again reaching for the smallest and most insignificant example of corporal punishment....so minuscule, I'm not sure whether or not the child would have even noticed it! I know I wouldn't, and I recall an example from kindergarten for reference: I don't recall a whole lot of my early childhood experiences (except for the most dramatic ones) but I recall getting spanked by my kindergarten teacher and not feeling anything. I showed her absolutely no reaction because my punishments at home were way beyond what this teacher could or would do in her classroom.

What I found out from two of my older brothers who were in the higher grades of that elementary school at the time was that they were called in to the principal's office to discuss their home situation with the principal and my kindergarten teacher, because she was so disturbed by my lack of response and suspected child abuse in our home. At that time...a time when schools still had corporal punishment, parents were rarely charged with child abuse, and no doubt educators started thinking back in the 60's....maybe there's a better way! Because kids who are hard to manage and come from abusive homes, are not benefiting from the punishments they receive at home and there's no way in hell we can one-up their abusive parents and give the child a beating that will stop whatever bad behavior they are doing at school!

Finally, since you invoked religious zealots and fundamentalists to throw at me in your last diatribe, I want to remind you that you are making their argument for them! It's the James Dobson's of this world who pose as parenting experts and have been encouraging parents and schools (this is why they hate public education btw) to go back to that old time discipline again....and keep producing more and more conservative, authoritarian, religious zealots to fill their ranks!

Are you deliberately TRYING to be obtuse? If so, you are succeeding. Ultimately, the debate over spanking is pointless. Parents (good or bad) will do what they please and I seriously doubt they will be influenced by "the latest" psychobabble from so-called "experts" or DTT posters.
I gave you the definition of spanking. You ignored it. If you want your young child to put their hand on a hot stove then I guess there's nothing I can do to convince you otherwise. "Just say no" doesn't always work.
Most of us LOVE our children and do NOT want to hurt them in any way. We do our best to protect them from themselves and others.