Stand Your Ground Laws--Where do You Stand

Dec 2016
3,825
1,976
Canada
#91
Common man, you are smarter than this and know that this is media hyped hysteria. The police kill people indescrimantly. And the prision system is rigged yes but against the poor not by race.
I'll assume you mean: come on man! Either way, when citizen's activists have to do the factfinding to keep track of police killings/because police departments won't do it....or won't release the total numbers to the public, it's obvious they're hiding something!

It's also worth noting that every time a cop gets off scott free for killing in the line of duty, the message is sent to everyone else in the community that the police are driving around your neighborhood as an act of intimidation, since you never know if saying the wrong thing or making the wrong movement will get you killed. Police forces are out there to protect property first, and wealthier property owners second. In any poor community, a police force is an expensive, burdensome army of occupation...no different than the paramilitaries that frequently harass residents of favelas in Brazil and other high crime Latin American cities!

In a nation like the US of A, it's sort of a moot point to say that the criminal 'justice' system is rigged against the poor, when color tracks so closely with poverty! Although white poverty is growing rapidly in the past 10 years.
 
Likes: Biff
Dec 2016
3,825
1,976
Canada
#92
No defendent in a criminal trial has to prove anything. The burden is always on the state.
Ha! That's hilarious! If a defendant has no money and will be lucky to even get an overburdened public attorney...who doesn't know much of anything about his case...and doesn't have the time or interest in bothering with it, the defendant is going to be threatened by the D.A. or Crown Attorney up here, with what he faces if he doesn't accept a plea bargain to a lesser charge. How many cases of this type go to trial?
 
Likes: catus felis
Dec 2013
30,270
18,396
Beware of watermelons
#93
I'll assume you mean: come on man! Either way, when citizen's activists have to do the factfinding to keep track of police killings/because police departments won't do it....or won't release the total numbers to the public, it's obvious they're hiding something!

It's also worth noting that every time a cop gets off scott free for killing in the line of duty, the message is sent to everyone else in the community that the police are driving around your neighborhood as an act of intimidation, since you never know if saying the wrong thing or making the wrong movement will get you killed. Police forces are out there to protect property first, and wealthier property owners second. In any poor community, a police force is an expensive, burdensome army of occupation...no different than the paramilitaries that frequently harass residents of favelas in Brazil and other high crime Latin American cities!

In a nation like the US of A, it's sort of a moot point to say that the criminal 'justice' system is rigged against the poor, when color tracks so closely with poverty! Although white poverty is growing rapidly in the past 10 years.

Years ago we went away from the "protect and serve" to city military and freeway pirates. Now i live in a city where the cops are in the news at least once a year for getting caught executing someone but still i would much prefer to have to be in contact w/ one of them than a suburb or small town cop. Last year it was a Somali cop who executed a white foreigner. How much do we here about that? Why? Well, white people don't tend to riot everytime something doest go their way, that is unless they are upper middle class kids and someone they don't like is giving a speech that is.
 
Nov 2017
1,339
757
Virginia
#94
Stand your ground laws are just plain dangerous
Yeah, that's the point, to be dangerous. It's essentially making the statement to those who would be willing to victimize others - don't fuck with law abiding individuals, or they can take whatever action is necessary to neutralize any effort to victimize them up to and including the most dangerous thing to them: kill.

and have wreaked havoc on law enforcement and the court system.
So? Your priorities are backwards if you think that this is a reason for opposing stand your ground laws.

These laws are controversial and debatable.
Again - so? Anything can be controversial and debatable. Evolution is controversial and debatable. Earth is a globe - is controversial and debatable. Does that make them false? I say no, no it doesn't.

Here's my understanding from the research I've done:
Stand-your-ground laws are predicated on the duty to retreat which says that “a person who is under an imminent threat of personal harm must retreat from the threat as much as possible before responding with force in self-defense.”
25 states have these laws and they are confusing because as usual, SOME Americans assume the law gives them the right to a kind of vigilante justice. They don't.
More than likely, if you kill someone while standing your ground, YOU will be arrested. The questions will come later.
Essentially, supporters say that the laws give people the right to protect themselves. Yeah, but......every situation is different which opens a huge box of worms.
Does this stuff apply to LEOs? Or, are LEOs obligated to retreat from threats as much as possible?
 
Dec 2016
3,825
1,976
Canada
#95
They're clearly a mistake. They are way too broad and give people license to kill.
I'm inclined to believe they already had an idea on who gets to stand their ground and who doesn't before they drafted these laws.

I also wonder if part of the story is connected with the general decline in public services....schools and public facilities are being privatized, rich people hire their own cops and firefighters now, so let the average salt of the earth overweight middle aged white man carry a gun and act as his own cop. They're part of our essential voting demographic!
 
Dec 2016
3,825
1,976
Canada
#97
Years ago we went away from the "protect and serve" to city military and freeway pirates. Now i live in a city where the cops are in the news at least once a year for getting caught executing someone but still i would much prefer to have to be in contact w/ one of them than a suburb or small town cop. Last year it was a Somali cop who executed a white foreigner. How much do we here about that? Why? Well, white people don't tend to riot everytime something doest go their way, that is unless they are upper middle class kids and someone they don't like is giving a speech that is.
Well first - something's seriously wrong with your spellcheck tonight!
Second - the exception doesn't prove the rule. Is there more than one example of an East African cop killing a white foreigner? Not that there aren't a lot of black cops involved in police shootings also. Problem is once they put on that uniform, they have quotas to meet and one way to advance up the chain of command if they're ambitious.....so, they're all blue when they're on the job!
Three - as for white people don't tend to riot..really! Ever see mostly white college students rioting because they lost/or won a stupid football game! Difference is they don't usually get called riots when they're white. And usually, nobody gets shot either!
 
Nov 2018
577
112
Montana
#98
Biff, post: 1277289, member: 8482"]The fundamental question is, do SYG laws make it easier to use deadly force?
Surely the pro-gun knuts and anti-gun will agree with that....

NO !!! It does not. AS YOU POINTED OUT you still have to prove self defense. The only way your statement is valid is if you think being able to defend myself outside my home qualifies as "making it easier" to claim self defense.
The entire purpose of SYG is to avoid taking another action so the law HAS to make "self-defense" actions easier. That is the basic argument of pro-gun groups. If the law does NOT make self-defense easier, why is it proposed. You yourself claim that it eliminate the need to make an attempt to retreat.
 
Nov 2018
577
112
Montana
#99
WHO uses the word gunsel ??? Jesus you must be really fucking old !!! But ya know, surely we'd of heard if there were riving bands of vigilantes just roaming the city streets looking for people to gun down ??? Don't ya think ?? Oh wait in some cities they've called COPS !!!

And I give you a well thought out reasoned argument and you call it NRA talking points. So just fuck you very much. I can see there is no reason to attempt discussion with you.
So, you actually know nothing about the Vermont laws...in spite of your claims.
 
Nov 2018
577
112
Montana
Since it is easier to use deadly force and easier to kill, is there an increase in homicide (justifiable or not)?
Probably:
The deadly consequences of ‘Stand Your Ground’ laws

Again as has been pointed out MANY MANY times in various threads, even with gun ownership up and the number of guns in the country also up, HOMICIDES, justified or otherwise have been going down. In fact ALL violent crime is at historic lows.

It doesn't matter how many anti-gun, hatchet job, hit piece op-ed's you post the simple fact is CRIME IS DOWN even with more guns in the country.

SYG cases are rare. And you can't say it's a bad law because of an infinitesimally small number of people who erroneously try to hide behind a law after committing a crime they most likely would have committed anyway.
Apparently you did not read the reference I posted. It concerns evidence that in states with SYG, the homicide rate rises AFTER the law is introduced and that rise is different from the surrounding states and is apparently independent of other possible factors. Read the article before you flip out....
 

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