The false "religious-secular dichtomy"

Oct 2019
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In practice, "secular" theories or philosophies, such as Humanism, are predicated on faith-based axioms or principles, just as "religious" ones are:

Secular Humanism has been recognized as a religion by the Supreme Court, regardless of whether or not it invokes "god" or anything "supernatural".


Likewise, even theories or bodies of law which are considered "secular" developed out of "religious ones" (the Common Law system of the US and Britain evolved out of older systems of law, such as Exodus - likewise the Secular Humanist religion is said to have its roots in Auguste Comte's positivist philosophy - which sought to create a "secular" replacement for the Catholic Church during the time of the French Revolution).

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I'd argue there is enough evidence to indicate that "secular and religious" is now an archaic notion, and a false dichotomy - likewise "religious" concepts were not necessarily devised "in a vacuum" to begin with, or without practical considerations - in past eras, such as Medieval Europe, church and state were not separate institutions with separated powers and authorities (the Catholic Church, for instance served both the function of religion as well as that of a "multi-national corporation").

"Religious - secular" is therefore a dichotomy that only exists in pure abstraction.
 
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Dec 2018
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LOL oh brother

Secularism was not defined as a religion. It was used as an example for an organized group in the FOOT NOTE in Justice Black's ruling in Torcaso v Watkins. This is a common talking point creationists use when arguing creationism should be taught in science classes. "Secularism is a religion and secular based science is taught in school, so non-secular based sciences should be taught to."

To put this into context, it's VERY easy to be classified as a religion. Comedian John Oliver did it with his HBO show as a means of showing how televangelists take advantage of people. He spent about 2 minutes saying "send me money send me money send me money" and put a phone number up for people to call and donate. If I remember correctly the number was, honestly, "1-800-THIS-IS-LEGAL".
 
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Oct 2019
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LOL oh brother

Secularism was not defined as a religion. It was used as an example for an organized group in the FOOT NOTE in Justice Black's ruling in Torcaso v Watkins. This is a common talking point creationists use when arguing creationism should be taught in science classes. "Secularism is a religion and secular based science is taught in school, so non-secular based sciences should be taught to."

To put this into context, it's VERY easy to be classified as a religion. Comedian John Oliver did it with his HBO show as a means of showing how televangelists take advantage of people. He spent about 2 minutes saying "send me money send me money send me money" and put a phone number up for people to call and donate. If I remember correctly the number was, honestly, "1-800-THIS-IS-LEGAL".
I said Secular Humanism was recognized as a religion by the Supreme Court, along with other "non-theistic" religions (Daoism).

If one wants to nitpick and argue over words like "philosophy vs religion", I don't particularly care. (Many people are just using solipsistic definitions of "religion" to begin with - usually definitions which reduce "religion" to belief in gods, mythology, or 'supernatural' concepts - even this isn't even what makes a religion a religion to begin with).

Secular Humanism is a set of axioms or principles accepted on faith, as every religion or philosophy is (even within the realm of secular philosophy, it isn't the only philosophy or philosophical school either) - debating the merits of different religions and philosophies is a different ballpark entirely, which I'm not prepared to do - I'm just tired of people lying and pretending that Secular Humanism isn't a religion, or conflating Atheism directly with Secular Humanism.
 
Dec 2018
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I said Secular Humanism was recognized as a religion by the Supreme Court, along with other "non-theistic" religions (Daoism).

If one wants to nitpick and argue over words like "philosophy vs religion", I don't particularly care. (Many people are just using solipsistic definitions of "religion" to begin with - usually definitions which reduce "religion" to belief in gods, mythology, or 'supernatural' concepts - even this isn't even what makes a religion a religion to begin with).

Secular Humanism is a set of axioms or principles accepted on faith, as every religion or philosophy is - debating the merits thereof is a different ballpark entirely).
I'm not making an argument between philosophy and religion. You brought up the fact that the supreme court ruled secular humanism as a religion and I'm pointing out the flaw in that argument.
 
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Oct 2019
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I'm not making an argument between philosophy and religion. You brought up the fact that the supreme court ruled secular humanism as a religion and I'm pointing out the flaw in that argument.
Secular humanism as religion. It has occasionally been argued that in Torcaso v. Watkins the Supreme Court "found" secular humanism to be a religion. This assertion is based on a reference, by Justice Black in footnote number 11 of the Court's finding, to court cases where organized groups of self-identified humanists, or ethicists, meeting on a regular basis to share and celebrate their beliefs, have been granted religious-based tax exemptions.


They've been recognized as a religion by the Supreme Court and received religious tax exemptions - what's there to argue? (If you're going to argue that lack of a "god" means it isn't a religion, then neither is Scientology, or Eastern religions such as Confucianism, Daoism, or some forms of Buddhism).

It developed out of Auguste Comte's "cult of positivism" in the early 19th century (which interestingly originally was intended to be a secular replacement for the Catholic Church, complete with secular "saints" and all - such as Comte replacing the Virgin Mary with a woman he was in love with).

 
Dec 2018
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2,449
Wisconsin
Secular humanism as religion. It has occasionally been argued that in Torcaso v. Watkins the Supreme Court "found" secular humanism to be a religion. This assertion is based on a reference, by Justice Black in footnote number 11 of the Court's finding, to court cases where organized groups of self-identified humanists, or ethicists, meeting on a regular basis to share and celebrate their beliefs, have been granted religious-based tax exemptions.


They've been recognized as a religion by the Supreme Court and received religious tax exemptions - what's there to argue? (If you're going to argue that lack of a "god" means it isn't a religion, then neither is Scientology, or Eastern religions such as Confucianism, Daoism, or some forms of Buddhism).

It developed out of Auguste Comte's "cult of positivism" in the early 19th century (which interestingly originally was intended to be a secular replacement for the Catholic Church, complete with secular "saints" and all - such as Comte replacing the Virgin Mary with a woman he was in love with).

Secularism isn't a lack of a god. It is a separation of god and state. And if you're going to point to a FRENCH philosopher and how his cult grew in BRAZIL as reported by the IRISH Times as an example as Secular Humanism was ruled to be a religion by the US, you might need some stronger arguments.
 
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Secularism isn't a lack of a god. It is a separation of god and state. And if you're going to point to a FRENCH philosopher and how his cult grew in BRAZIL as reported by the IRISH Times as an example as Secular Humanism was ruled to be a religion by the US, you might need some stronger arguments.
He didn't even read his own link.
 
Oct 2019
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Secularism isn't a lack of a god. It is a separation of god and state.
Wrong - "separation of church and state" is a legal concept.

Secular Humanism is a specific religion or philosophy with specific moral or ethical beliefs or axioms (there are other secular philosophies besides Humanism as well). I posted their statement of principles above.

"Separation of church and state" are not absolute anyway - as I mentioned, even "secular" systems of government, such as the US and British Common Law developed out of "religious systems", such as exodus - and include Laws based on Judeo-Christian moral concepts, such as laws against rape and murder.

So yes, technically forcing a murderer not to murder, or a rapist not to rape, is "forcing religion" on them. Even if a literal "Satanist" claimed his "religion" allowed him to rape and murder as he pleases, he'd be in for a very rude awakening and find Judeo-Christian morality forced on him by a criminal court whether he liked it or not.

And if you're going to point to a FRENCH philosopher and how his cult grew in BRAZIL as reported by the IRISH Times as an example as Secular Humanism was ruled to be a religion by the US, you might need some stronger arguments.
He's considered one of the founders of the Secular Humanist philosophy, that's why I linked him; he originally even wanted to develop a full-fleged "secular" version of the Catholic Church, complete with "secular" saints and sacraments, but it was watered down.
 
Jun 2018
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The US is about to end the separation of church and state:

Here Trump being blessed by evangelicals in the WH:



I find this very dangerous. Almost like american talibanism.
 
Oct 2019
676
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USA
The US is about to end the separation of church and state:

Here Trump being blessed by evangelicals in the WH:



I find this very dangerous. Almost like american talibanism.
I don't see how that's comparable to the Taliban, let me know when they start beheading people, then maybe I'll be more inclined to care.