The official Impeachment Trial thread.

PMB

Mar 2018
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220
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You do realize that people can be civil and friendly with one another without being labeled traitors or dissidents right? Ellen Degeneres is allowed to be friends with former president Bush and talk civilly with each other without being called out for it. I guess that's the real issue here. People like you want to completely sever all ties to anyone of any other political party because they disagree with you. By definition we call that being a bigot.
big·ot
/ˈbiɡət/
noun

  1. a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions
I have no issue speaking with anyone from any political affiliation...can you say the same? Most dems refuse to even speak to republicans which is such a clear form of bigotry that you all should really rename your party as the Racist Bigot Party.

Seriously, your party is still responsible for slavery and segregation and now a days you whine about reparations as if the rest of us need to pay for your party's crimes against humanity...sorry but we don't. I listen and discuss politics and remain friendly with people who call themselves dems but I find the feeling isn't mutual because people in your party are irrational and emotional and rarely logical and base your opinions on facts. When members of your party want to get support, they use emotional manipulation and tell you what the problem is, who's to blame for it, and ask for money so they can fight it...but they never do fix anything do they? Consider the homeless crisis where I've personally heard election after election dems ask for money to "Fix" the problem and it only gets worse...and that money is no where to be seen.

I'm not perfect...and if I'm wrong in something you can call be delusional and cite the FACTS to support your claim. What I don't want is conjecture and emotional tirades claiming that it's enough to justify your position. I don't care for dershowitz in many regards because I feel he tends to side with a more liberal view of the world and I tend to disagree with him. However, I always listen and take into consideration other opinions and see if they warrant me to change my mind. Michael Shellenberger, a democrat who Obama appointed to spearhead renewable energy changed my mind as have others. I am open to my mind accepting new information and facts and making a change to my educated decision on what to believe. Do you? I don't see a lot of dems EVER listening let alone considering how they might be wrong. Clearly you all were wrong with the impeachment...did you learn anything or are you still obstinate as ever?

The good news is if you have any actual facts, I'd love to hear them...but as it is...clearly there were none or they would have been collected by the house dems and presented for the senate to review. The whole case was complete crap and when it fell apart, they screamed to call witnesses they should have included in the original cases. The issue is, you can't have a fair trial if the GOP can't even cross examine the witnesses and are limited to only asking questions of those who "talked" to the witnesses. It's just laughable that you or anyone might consider that even fair.
That would be trump:
big·ot
/ˈbiɡət/
noun

a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions

He is a nasty vindictive a hole. Its true, Bolton, Romney, etc (I can't name all the people but just know its a lot) have their" head on a pike.
 

PMB

Mar 2018
394
220
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The only way for you to keep your head in the sand is to come back and claim it's all not sourced so it can't be real.

If I sourced everything for you you'd simply argue that it's something else. If you weren't a bigot, you'd look for yourself and see I'm correct. I can only lead a horse to water, I can't make it drink...especially when they refuse to accept the water before them is real.
Please post a link to post # 786. Thank you. I'm not drinking your Kool-Aid.
 

PMB

Mar 2018
394
220
US
So, you're suggesting Senators were able to ask questions directly from the whistleblower? Please answer that if I'm so wrong.
We are aware that Trump threatened the whistleblower, vengeance is mine said trump. All tramp had to do is look in the mirror and he could of seen the whistleblower ie, the memo of the phone call.

Even Roberts refused Paul's question, because it against the law to OUT a whistleblower that legally goes through all the channels.
 
Sep 2019
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I can't quite figure out if that is best described as a red herring or a strawman. But either way it is just stupid.

The whistle blowers only purpose to the Trump cause was to make his infantile sycophants spout such ridiculous things. All facts he presented were verifiable by witnesses.
Alright, let's try this another way.

I tell you John Doe is guilty of murder. I show you a knife and tell you I witnessed him do it. You then use my testimony as "evidence". The knife doesn't have fingerprints or blood on it but it "could" be a murder weapon. Does John Doe's attorney have a right to question me directly or is it ok for you to speak on my behalf and answer questions for me?

This is essentially what happened during the impeachment trial. There were witnesses that attorney's weren't allowed to even question for several months and when the Senate Trial actually came, the president's actual attorneys and several key senators who are allowed and justified in asking questions directly from the witnesses including the whistleblower, weren't allowed to. They had to question Schiff and others but couldn't ask the whistleblower directly. Some wanted to know if the whistleblower had any involvement in the Biden Ukraine investigation to better understand if this witness was even admissible or if there was a conflict of interest. However, they weren't allowed to question the whistleblower directly and had to work through schiff as intermediary. In addition, Schiff claimed that he had no direct involvement yet information came to light that he did and when questions were asked regarding this, the questions were pushed past and not addressed.

There was a ton of dishonesty on the part of the democrats who literally hid witnesses and information and didn't even let the president's attorney's look at it for the first 74 days of the impeachment process. There is no justification on Earth that would allow that. Even during the Clinton impeachment, BOTH sides had access to the information and were allowed to question either publicly or in private to ensure secret information was secure. That didn't happen because the democrats chose to be all cloak and dagger with the lack of information they had and were hoping to push this through on hatred alone. The whole case was beyond weak from the get go and went forward because they wanted to hurt the president politically. They knew in the beginning they had nothing but as time passed they started believing delusional that they might oust him on everyone's hatred alone and it's pathetic. There isn't a single moment where there was an honest trial and all the GOP senators called out the complete disregard for fairness and the attorney's for the president made repeated comments that the whole proceeding was insane for how convoluted and dishonest it was. The democrats literally wanted to impeach a president for investigating a case other countries also were investigating and asking the new president of the Ukraine about it. That's it. There was no threat he used the aide money to get help, there was no abuse of power as every president is allowed to do this. This was a shit show by the democratic party and they wanted us all to take a bite. Thankfully, we stopped it and refused to play along any further. Now they are whining that we didn't allow witnesses and it's like a bunch of spoiled children never getting their way and crying about it. Had they had a real case they wouldn't need additional witnesses. Had they done their job they would have already included those witnesses testimony. None of it happened and now they're whining about it because they lost and did a poor job of presenting their own case. It's utterly insane.
 
Sep 2019
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I don't know about him, but I certainly choke when I read his stupid rubbish.
Ok....fair enough. What exactly do you want to see for our country? Honest question and the reason I'm asking is to have a civil discussion if you're interested.

I have no doubt we'd share certain areas of interest because they're things your party and I do agree with. I'm also sure there are things we might disagree with but I wanted to be fair and ask.
 
Sep 2019
335
102
CA
That would be trump:
big·ot
/ˈbiɡət/
noun

a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions

He is a nasty vindictive a hole. Its true, Bolton, Romney, etc (I can't name all the people but just know its a lot) have their" head on a pike.
Trump is a nasty vindictive a hole. I don't disagree with you. I'd also say he's an egotistical narcissist who loves to hear his own voice. That said, I may not like him as a person, but he IS doing a great job as our commander in chief.

I hired lots of people over the years and I don't have to like them all for them to be good at their job. That's the difference I feel exists between the parties...the GOP doesn't really like him but he is doing well and they see it. The DNC hates him and no matter what good he does, they won't give him the benefit of admitting any success because they might have to admit he is doing well.
 
Sep 2019
335
102
CA
We are aware that Trump threatened the whistleblower, vengeance is mine said trump. All tramp had to do is look in the mirror and he could of seen the whistleblower ie, the memo of the phone call.

Even Roberts refused Paul's question, because it against the law to OUT a whistleblower that legally goes through all the channels.
1. there are lots of laws protecting a whistleblower. There's a reasonable wiki page on it here: Whistleblower protection in the United States - Wikipedia
2. prosecution and defense have a right to question the whistleblower. If not publicly, then privately. To deny that is to negate the validity of the whistleblower.

If I make a claim about you that you are beating your pet and I witnessed it but I want to remain anonymous because we're neighbors...I can make the claim, but when the trial comes, their defense has a right to question what I saw to see if I am telling the truth or if I made it up because I was mad at you.

The democratic senate questions were relatively insane such as Chris Murphy asking if the president would give up his rights in an effort to speed things up, or Bernie asking why anyone should believe Trump's words because he lies, or Schiff accusing trump lawyers of threatening the senate with endless court battles as if Trump shouldn't have any rights and we should all ignore due process. The whole damn thing was insane. The GOP asked some poignant questions, the dems asked about limiting or removing trumps power so they could push this through their way and hurt him politically.
Senators pelt Trump’s lawyers and impeachment managers with questions
 
Sep 2019
335
102
CA
The impeachment Trial is over. Trump won because the House Dems threw together a half assed attempt. I personally would have preferred the House focused on:

1. Healthcare - Medicaid covers over 72 million people through a federal program. We can add more but I don't want the government forcing me to change my healthcare because they want a single universal plan. Give everyone the option...not force one solution on all.
2. Prescription Drug Prices - Our country pays FAR more for the same drugs that can be purchased elsewhere for much cheaper...it's insane.
3. Immigration - Trump is reforming immigration and helping to secure our borders to ensure people come here legally and become citizens the right way. We will always welcome people from any ethnicity, religion, race, or gender into our country but we must always do it intelligently so it doesn't negatively impact our economy and states negatively. We allow over 1 million per year already and it's a privilege to become a US citizen when their time comes. We shouldn't ever just open our borders as NO country does this without seeing hugely negative impacts on their people and economy.
4. Education - Our kids ARE our future and we give them some of the worst education on the planet.
5. Environment - Honestly, we're more environmentally conscious than countries like China, Russia, India, etc. Even if we completely stopped all negative impacts to the environment, it wouldn't impact the overall environment because of the biggest polluters making such a huge mess. We really need to consider tariffs or other things to push the big polluters to change their ways.
6. Spending - We need to manage the money better and reduce spending so we can stop stealing from Peter to pay Paul.
7. Welfare - This is a huge button for me as welfare was meant to help families and it's only hurt them. Welfare is responsible for tearing up the black community according to many reports. Black children raised in the early 60's were 70% likely to be raised by a mother and father together whereas now they are less than 20% likely. Universities, organizations, and countless other groups have done reports on the negative impacts of the welfare program's impact on many communities since LBJ signed it into action. The bottom line is that it was meant to help people get back on their feet, not drag them further down and hold them back...but it has. We need to reform the welfare program so that it enables people to get back up off their feet and be independent and not living off the government handouts. We raise our kids to grow up and be independent and successful and lead happy lives. We don't want them to grow up and live off us forever, never have a job, have no means to pay for things and basically be lazy good for nothings. Why wouldn't we expect the same for others? Why shouldn't we have the same hopes and expectations of anyone on welfare that they use it to get back on their feet and independent and reach a point where they don't need it anymore? Isn't that the real hope we should have?

while I have no doubt some might argue with my positions...wouldn't it be awesome if our elected officials actually worked on these areas instead of crying about someone they hate?
 

PMB

Mar 2018
394
220
US
1. there are lots of laws protecting a whistleblower. There's a reasonable wiki page on it here: Whistleblower protection in the United States - Wikipedia
2. prosecution and defense have a right to question the whistleblower. If not publicly, then privately. To deny that is to negate the validity of the whistleblower.

If I make a claim about you that you are beating your pet and I witnessed it but I want to remain anonymous because we're neighbors...I can make the claim, but when the trial comes, their defense has a right to question what I saw to see if I am telling the truth or if I made it up because I was mad at you.

The democratic senate questions were relatively insane such as Chris Murphy asking if the president would give up his rights in an effort to speed things up, or Bernie asking why anyone should believe Trump's words because he lies, or Schiff accusing trump lawyers of threatening the senate with endless court battles as if Trump shouldn't have any rights and we should all ignore due process. The whole damn thing was insane. The GOP asked some poignant questions, the dems asked about limiting or removing trumps power so they could push this through their way and hurt him politically.
Senators pelt Trump’s lawyers and impeachment managers with questions
So why didn't the senate (non trial) call the whistleblower?
 

PMB

Mar 2018
394
220
US
The impeachment Trial is over. Trump won because the House Dems threw together a half assed attempt. I personally would have preferred the House focused on:

1. Healthcare - Medicaid covers over 72 million people through a federal program. We can add more but I don't want the government forcing me to change my healthcare because they want a single universal plan. Give everyone the option...not force one solution on all.
2. Prescription Drug Prices - Our country pays FAR more for the same drugs that can be purchased elsewhere for much cheaper...it's insane.
3. Immigration - Trump is reforming immigration and helping to secure our borders to ensure people come here legally and become citizens the right way. We will always welcome people from any ethnicity, religion, race, or gender into our country but we must always do it intelligently so it doesn't negatively impact our economy and states negatively. We allow over 1 million per year already and it's a privilege to become a US citizen when their time comes. We shouldn't ever just open our borders as NO country does this without seeing hugely negative impacts on their people and economy.
4. Education - Our kids ARE our future and we give them some of the worst education on the planet.
5. Environment - Honestly, we're more environmentally conscious than countries like China, Russia, India, etc. Even if we completely stopped all negative impacts to the environment, it wouldn't impact the overall environment because of the biggest polluters making such a huge mess. We really need to consider tariffs or other things to push the big polluters to change their ways.
6. Spending - We need to manage the money better and reduce spending so we can stop stealing from Peter to pay Paul.
7. Welfare - This is a huge button for me as welfare was meant to help families and it's only hurt them. Welfare is responsible for tearing up the black community according to many reports. Black children raised in the early 60's were 70% likely to be raised by a mother and father together whereas now they are less than 20% likely. Universities, organizations, and countless other groups have done reports on the negative impacts of the welfare program's impact on many communities since LBJ signed it into action. The bottom line is that it was meant to help people get back on their feet, not drag them further down and hold them back...but it has. We need to reform the welfare program so that it enables people to get back up off their feet and be independent and not living off the government handouts. We raise our kids to grow up and be independent and successful and lead happy lives. We don't want them to grow up and live off us forever, never have a job, have no means to pay for things and basically be lazy good for nothings. Why wouldn't we expect the same for others? Why shouldn't we have the same hopes and expectations of anyone on welfare that they use it to get back on their feet and independent and reach a point where they don't need it anymore? Isn't that the real hope we should have?

while I have no doubt some might argue with my positions...wouldn't it be awesome if our elected officials actually worked on these areas instead of crying about someone they hate?
So your a libertarian, don't worry about Medicaid giving healthcare (Kansas and Utah just passed expanded Medicaid-republican strongholds) as trump is cutting down on it and wants to do block grants. I'm sure he will give the Democratic states less money in his grants. An incumbent Potus has an 80% chance of being re-elected.

So since the Potus has been divorced twice, of which time he has cheated on all 3 wifes, your dismissing it because of him being able to finance his kids.

So you think education is the worst on the planet, how so?