The official Impeachment Trial thread.

Sep 2019
335
102
CA
I don't know about him, but I certainly choke when I read his stupid rubbish.
I noticed you haven't responded to my request in #795 where I said:

"Ok....fair enough. What exactly do you want to see for our country? Honest question and the reason I'm asking is to have a civil discussion if you're interested.

I have no doubt we'd share certain areas of interest because they're things your party and I do agree with. I'm also sure there are things we might disagree with but I wanted to be fair and ask."

I'd very much like to hear what your thoughts are so maybe we can find some middle ground.

Also, I noticed you and others here didn't respond to the list of Democratic Accomplishments I listed in #785. Typically I get denial or some comment that "that was the OLD democratic party, not the new one..." as if the transgressions your party has made throughout it's history have ever been good and it suddenly stopped or dems have suddenly helped ANYONE along the way. They pass more and more legislation along the way trying to placate and pander to another group in hopes to gain more support but it never tends to help our country. Special treatment isn't equality...it's pandering. If you tell the black or mexican community that they can't be successful without your help, that's disingenuous and a blatant lie. However, democrats keep doing that (I.e. "No child left behind", Affirmative Action, etc.). They are even now fighting to keep the illegal immigrants hoping that they'll vote democrat and forgetting that many fled socialist countries and would NEVER vote for what they fled. Dems even fight for transgender bathrooms as if appealing to trans people if going to help win them more support and votes. It's all such pandering. Yet, when Republicans point out how stupid it all is...we're racist bigots. LOL. My children are part Hispanic yet one day I was called a racist by dems because I pointed out that there's a reason we regulate immigration. I informed them that my wife immigrated here legally and feels the same way I do that illegals don't respect our laws and procedures so why should we award them for their lack of effort and punish those who became citizens legally through the proper means? I find often that most dems are hypocritical in so many regards suggesting special treatment to groups while pandering for their votes. As if you or anyone in your party needs to speak on another groups behalf...I guess they can't speak for themselves?
 
Feb 2018
3,231
2,445
Oregon
One or two things caught my eye. .....

However, democrats keep doing that (I.e. "No child left behind", Affirmative Action, etc.).
NCLB was a GWBush invention, not one by Democrats.

They are even now fighting to keep the illegal immigrants hoping that they'll vote democrat and forgetting that many fled socialist countries and would NEVER vote for what they fled. Dems even fight for transgender bathrooms as if appealing to trans people if going to help win them more support and votes. It's all such pandering.
So it looks like in your scheme of things, the only reason a politician does anything is to get votes with no interest in simply doing what is right. You know, it is possible for the rank-and-file to demand what's right and for their representatives to agree. In fact, I wouldn't care if the Dems waited until after the election to fight for immigrants since it's the right thing to do and this government won't do anything right about it.

BTW, if you have any interest in the facts about illegal immigrants and their conditions and what they do for you, you should have seen the first episode last night of "What Eats America" on MSNBC. The next 3 episodes air each Sunday night. It was a real eye-opener. I never knew what they found and said. And no, you don't know if it's bullshit until you see the evidence they present.
 
Feb 2007
6,456
4,207
USA
No president is going to be removed from office on what people think. There must be a supportable case of High Crimes and Misdemeanors. The House was derelict in providing supportable evidence. Biden is the only person in this circus act that rises to the level of quid pro quo.
Actually, and in reality, Senate Republicans-by and large-didn't even care that the Trump Administration had quite clearly and undeniably violated the Impoundment Control Act and that Trump had quite clearly and undeniably failed to faithfully execute the laws of the US, as required of him via the Constitution.

And, Trump doing so, had violated the trust of the US public, of which is also quite clearly and undeniably, as viewed by the authors of the Constitution, a "misdemeanor," and thus an impeachable and removable from office offense.

:rolleyes:
 
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Sep 2019
335
102
CA
First of all, you are obviously entirely ignorant of the actual House impeachment investigations because your characterization of it is false nonsense. And you didn't answer my question on whether you really think Biden's guilt or innocence would have any bearing whatsoever on Trump and his guilt or innocence. But I'll bet you would support the exclusion of all witnesses from the Senate discussion-that-wasn't-a-trial.
Kode,

Fair point. I'd like to take a stab at that answer and ask you a question. First, I don't think anyone president or otherwise is above the law. If a politician committed an impeachable act that warrants removal, then I would certainly support impeachment. That said, I honestly don't feel Trump committed any acts that were impeachable. Everything he did was within the power of his office and his right to do so. The Ukraine/Biden connection was a situation that many before Trump looked into including the British Government, many liberal media outlets and other groups looking to find out if VP Biden was using his position to further his family's financial gain. As the investigation suddenly stopped and Biden no longer was employed after the investigation ceased...it was extremely suspect as to why Biden's son was there in the first place and certainly warranted investigation. None of that would justify Trump committing an illegal act nor would it for any president....but I, many other lawyers and lawmakers, many state Attorney Generals, and finally the majority of the senate felt he committed any impeachable acts that weren't within his power.

So that said, what do YOU want for our country? I see a lot of divisiveness and people resorting to physical violence coming from the left.
Man driven by dislike of President Trump in GOP tent attack, report shows
Man Arrested For Attacking 15-Year-Old Trump Supporter In New Hampshire, Police Say
and many more examples if you'd like me to provide them.

but my question is this, why is the left been driven so insane as to think physical violence is justified and don't you think your attitude and others on the democratic side are part of the problem with the sheer hatred you have for people on the other side of the aisle? I don't hate you or anyone for their political views. I may disagree and might even consider them idiots for refusing to see what is so clearly in front of their face but I don't hate you or anyone in your party. I DO hate your party because it's still the same party that is linked to some of our countries worst atrocities in history and no matter how you polish a turd...it's still a turd. However, on the other side of the spectrum, the GOP has always fought for equality and the rights of the people and I'm proud to be aligned with the party with such a long history of equality. It doesn't mean I support every aspect and I'd wager you and I agree on some things but overall I do support my party because they don't have the countless atrocities against them and stood to do so much for out country from the start to even today. We may not agree on every aspect, but I do value and respect your opinion and may even learn something as you can too. We can't however as long as the left continues to treat people on the other side of the aisle like their enemies and refuses to even talk. So, I ask you, why have you all chosen to be so belligerent to those who disagree with you?
 
Jul 2008
19,391
13,575
Virginia Beach, VA
Kode,

Fair point. I'd like to take a stab at that answer and ask you a question. First, I don't think anyone president or otherwise is above the law. If a politician committed an impeachable act that warrants removal, then I would certainly support impeachment. That said, I honestly don't feel Trump committed any acts that were impeachable. Everything he did was within the power of his office and his right to do so. The Ukraine/Biden connection was a situation that many before Trump looked into including the British Government, many liberal media outlets and other groups looking to find out if VP Biden was using his position to further his family's financial gain. As the investigation suddenly stopped and Biden no longer was employed after the investigation ceased...it was extremely suspect as to why Biden's son was there in the first place and certainly warranted investigation. None of that would justify Trump committing an illegal act nor would it for any president....but I, many other lawyers and lawmakers, many state Attorney Generals, and finally the majority of the senate felt he committed any impeachable acts that weren't within his power.

So that said, what do YOU want for our country? I see a lot of divisiveness and people resorting to physical violence coming from the left.
Man driven by dislike of President Trump in GOP tent attack, report shows
Man Arrested For Attacking 15-Year-Old Trump Supporter In New Hampshire, Police Say
and many more examples if you'd like me to provide them.

but my question is this, why is the left been driven so insane as to think physical violence is justified and don't you think your attitude and others on the democratic side are part of the problem with the sheer hatred you have for people on the other side of the aisle? I don't hate you or anyone for their political views. I may disagree and might even consider them idiots for refusing to see what is so clearly in front of their face but I don't hate you or anyone in your party. I DO hate your party because it's still the same party that is linked to some of our countries worst atrocities in history and no matter how you polish a turd...it's still a turd. However, on the other side of the spectrum, the GOP has always fought for equality and the rights of the people and I'm proud to be aligned with the party with such a long history of equality. It doesn't mean I support every aspect and I'd wager you and I agree on some things but overall I do support my party because they don't have the countless atrocities against them and stood to do so much for out country from the start to even today. We may not agree on every aspect, but I do value and respect your opinion and may even learn something as you can too. We can't however as long as the left continues to treat people on the other side of the aisle like their enemies and refuses to even talk. So, I ask you, why have you all chosen to be so belligerent to those who disagree with you?
Do you really think it is only the “left” that engages in physical violence? That only the “left” thinks that those they disagree with is “the enemy”? (Hint: it was Trump that called the media “the enemy of the people”)
It was the Republicans that refused to talk about (or even consider) the nomination of Garland to the Supreme Court.
So don’t get all up on your high horse about the left. From where I sit there is blame on both sides. (Although under Trump the GOP seems to be the ones engaging more in the divisive rhetoric)
 
Feb 2018
3,231
2,445
Oregon
Kode,

Fair point. I'd like to take a stab at that answer and ask you a question. First, I don't think anyone president or otherwise is above the law. If a politician committed an impeachable act that warrants removal, then I would certainly support impeachment. That said, I honestly don't feel Trump committed any acts that were impeachable. Everything he did was within the power of his office and his right to do so.
If the tradition of a ban on indicting a sitting president is followed, the president IS above the law. And his proven quid pro quo was, in fact, illegal.

The Ukraine/Biden connection was a situation that many before Trump looked into including the British Government, many liberal media outlets and other groups looking to find out if VP Biden was using his position to further his family's financial gain. As the investigation suddenly stopped and Biden no longer was employed after the investigation ceased...it was extremely suspect as to why Biden's son was there in the first place and certainly warranted investigation.
Great. But that would be a separate, unrelated investigation and trial.

None of that would justify Trump committing an illegal act nor would it for any president....but I, many other lawyers and lawmakers, many state Attorney Generals, and finally the majority of the senate felt he committed any impeachable acts that weren't within his power.
Are you a lawyer? Is that what you just said?

And, you just said that you "felt he committed any impeachable acts that weren't within his power." I think you meant to write that you DON'T feel he committed any impeachable offense. But you must also consider that just as many, if not more, lawyers and lawmakers believe it was proved that Trump DID commit impeachable offenses. I also am of the conviction that the Senate "trial" wasn't a trial as it was lacking any witness of documentary evidence to consider for the first time in history. But I expect you disagree with this, too.

So that said, what do YOU want for our country? I see a lot of divisiveness and people resorting to physical violence coming from the left.
Man driven by dislike of President Trump in GOP tent attack, report shows
Man Arrested For Attacking 15-Year-Old Trump Supporter In New Hampshire, Police Say
and many more examples if you'd like me to provide them.
Both those cases were obvious crackpots hyped by extreme right wing sources. I can find as many opposite cases of right wingers attacking the left. But your attempt to link that with me is or anyone else is pretty despicable. You asked me what I want for our country. I'll be happy to answer. I want an end to the rather rapid slide into authoritarianism, an expansion of real democracy, and for elected officials including the president to ACTUALLY be subject to the law. We do, in fact, have a two-tiered legal system and it's wrong.

but my question is this, why is the left been driven so insane as to think physical violence is justified and don't you think your attitude and others on the democratic side are part of the problem with the sheer hatred you have for people on the other side of the aisle?
AGAIN you relate me and my views to those of a teeny minority of nutjobs you read about on right wing accusatory bullshit sites. I'll thank you to address me as me and not try to smear and sully my name. And NO, I don't think my attitude is part of the problem. Hatred? YES, I have quite a bit of hatred for what is being done to America and our slide into despotism. I HATE what is being done to minorities, the poor, the elderly. And it is very hard to separate that hatred from those who have caused it. But hating egregious wrongs doesn't seem very objectionable to me.

I don't hate you or anyone for their political views.
Right. You just lump me in with nutjobs, psychos, and criminals. But I'm sure you don't hate me for your fantasies.

I may disagree and might even consider them idiots for refusing to see what is so clearly in front of their face but I don't hate you or anyone in your party.
I have a news flash for you. You consider them idiots for refusing to see what YOU THINK is so clear because your thoughts are the product of right wing extremist media like Lumbaugh, etc. and you REFUSE to listen to MSM because of your jugements you've been fed on it, and it is all WRONG, ... as you just found out above when I answered what I want for our country. And if you dig deeper into my views, I believe you will find we are not as far apart as your right wing sources have convinced you we are.

I DO hate your party because it's still the same party that is linked to some of our countries worst atrocities in history and no matter how you polish a turd...it's still a turd.
Do you think I can't find equally horrible things the Republican party has done in the last 200 years? I let all that go as history because I know everything is different today, so I focus on what is being done an proposed TODAY.

However, on the other side of the spectrum, the GOP has always fought for equality and the rights of the people and I'm proud to be aligned with the party with such a long history of equality.
So you're really that blind to it, eh? You really don't know about Republicans denying hundreds of thousands the right to vote? Crooked, corrupted gerrymandering? The caging of children separated from their parents until the youngest no longer remember their parents??!! Their push to ban abortion thus harming those women?!! Trump cutting funding of the EPA, Social Security, Medicare?!!! The defense of gun proliferation while firearm deaths multiply? ....

1581973665656.png

That seems to be a pretty bad record on rights, like the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.


It doesn't mean I support every aspect and I'd wager you and I agree on some things but overall I do support my party because they don't have the countless atrocities against them ...
Neither do Democrats. Less even.

We may not agree on every aspect, but I do value and respect your opinion and may even learn something as you can too. We can't however as long as the left continues to treat people on the other side of the aisle like their enemies and refuses to even talk. So, I ask you, why have you all chosen to be so belligerent to those who disagree with you?
I am sometimes "belligerent" when a right winger says something astoundingly stupid in defense of something horribly egregious. The right has been told enough times what the facts are, even to the point of quoting Fox and other right wing sources to prove our points. And the response is almost always to lie in obvious ways, run and hide, more the goalposts, deflect, and deny. Honest discussion is very, very rare with righties and after a while people lose patience with the games. That is why. And I'd like very much to see you do differently.
 

PMB

Mar 2018
394
220
US
I'm not sure what you mean. Not trying to be difficult, just honestly confused. They requested on several occasions to deposition the whistleblower but continued to be denied and forced to get answers from Schiff and others instead. The very small group who actually talked to the whistleblower couldn't even ask the questions they wanted because the whole thing was being stone walled. So I really don't understand what you mean. The whistleblower only was willing to field written questions and never agreed to be questioned directly which begs a lot of really glaring problems like, why? If it's a matter of anonymity, they can conduct a private Q&A session and keep their identity hidden...but they didn't want to do that. The whistleblower should be asked if this is a conflict of interest first and foremost because if it is, his/her entire testimony is inadmissible anyways. They should also ask if the whistleblower had any direct connection to the Ukraine dealings under biden and obama as that would also add to a conflict of interest as that needs to be investigated and was being investigated by several other sources including the British government and several media outlets. Honestly, the whole cloak and dagger feel of the "information" is suspect and warrants some actual evidence otherwise it's all here say and inadmissible.
The house tried, the republicans in the house tried like crazy, but the Senate didn't, why? They didn't call any witnesses, and they knew better than to call try and call the whistleblower. Roberts would of shot it down.
 
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Jul 2008
19,391
13,575
Virginia Beach, VA
As I recall, none of the supposed witnesses could provide a supportable crime being committed. They even admitted such. Opinion and hearsay are subject to ambiguity. A president is not removed on someone's opinion. Clearly, this attempt was build on a faulty house of cards. Clinton was charged with supportable High Crimes yet, the Senate voted to acquit. The logical question is why.
Then you recall incorrectly.
 
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