The Thread for Non-Libertarians and Libertarians to Talk about Libertarianism

Mar 2020
1,429
371
Land of Freedom
I've come up with some ideas to have government without taxes but even my fellow libertarians rarely agree with any plan in particular.
But at least they were able to comprehend your ideas and give constructive criticism. How can you explain it to people who are there to shoot it down before you even open your mouth?

Well someone has to pay, right?
 
Mar 2020
302
226
Woodlands, Texas
Kate, what about Thatcher?
Yeah what about Thatcher?
Oh and what about Elizabeth I?
Any other examples from history?

No?
So every five hundred years a woman gets to be boss?
I feel loads better!


Women don't get to be leaders because men suck at following women.
Those exceptions prove the rule.
They are well known because it's so unusual.
 
Feb 2020
518
298
Kalifornia
You see, this is the part of libertarianism that I don't like. I feel like modern-day libertarianism had devolved into "taxes bad" rather than an ideological organization that wants to protect freedoms.
To a libertarian, these are the same. We believe the every person should have the right to keep the fruits of our labor (property).

When government takes our wealth (income taxes) by coercion, our right to Life, Liberty, and Property has been violated.

Simply put, it is WRONG for the government to take a person's wealth (or property) by coercion.

There are other ways of taxation that are ethical because no coercion is involved; e.g.; Tariffs, Sales tax, Excise Tax, etc.
 
Mar 2020
302
226
Woodlands, Texas
But if you read just that article, and you have no interest, I'll drop the subject with you and you can go back to your new besties in statist land.

But it's up to you . . . https://www.libertarianism.org/publications/essays/three-women-who-launched-movement
Ok, I read it. I also found and read that pamphlet written by Rose Wilder Lane.
It was interesting, it was very persuasive, I have to admit.
Sure the idea of freedom is what we grew up being taught as the ideal, then I go to college and I learn that too much freedom is often harmful and that too many people use "freedom" as a code word for being able to fuck people over in many ways.
Now that that I read makes me rethink all over again.

But here's the thing suppose I say, yeah, yay freedom I'll be the new RWL.
What's the practical side of it.
The "statists" already have their governments in place, how you gonna get them to step down?

How can you take away people's welfare checks and not expect them to riot?
How would you get them to vote for that in the first place?
Can you have a system where government lets people fail in a democracy when so many people think they are a step away from failure.

Assume you've convinced me we should have libertarian paradise just for the sake of being able to ask the next question.
How are you going to bring it about and how are you going to keep it from going back to what it is now?
We dont' have the prairies to build little houses on anymore.

Anyone of the dozens of libertarians on here are welcome to answer as well.:p
 
Mar 2020
1,429
371
Land of Freedom
You are taking it to the extreme wit this rioting stuff. People with empty stomachs do not have the strength to riot. No need to go to extreme measures. Just remind them that they placed their work boots on top of their food stamps.

I am not a Libertarian, just American.
 
Nov 2013
1,550
440
El Paso, TX
The fundamental problem with libertarianism is their focus on politics and economics. If you implement the best political and economic system on a bunch of beasts, they will still be beasts. Politics and economics cannot improve character, and this is the essential thing for a sound society. Only religion can improve character. Furthermore, the fundamental ideas of libertarianism cannot even exist without religion since the whole idea of individual rights comes from religion. This is why the Declaration of Independence says "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights". So those who support individual rights should focus on supporting the moral basis for such rights, and that comes from a sound religion.
 
Mar 2020
1,429
371
Land of Freedom
The fundamental problem with libertarianism is their focus on politics and economics. If you implement the best political and economic system on a bunch of beasts, they will still be beasts. Politics and economics cannot improve character, and this is the essential thing for a sound society. Only religion can improve character. Furthermore, the fundamental ideas of libertarianism cannot even exist without religion since the whole idea of individual rights comes from religion. This is why the Declaration of Independence says "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights". So those who support individual rights should focus on supporting the moral basis for such rights, and that comes from a sound religion.
No, Franklin. Libertarians focus on liberty. There are plenty of deeply religious Libertarians. The thing is they feel religion is a private and individual thing and that church and state should must be separate. No one has the right to impose or enforce their religion on anyone else. The declaration does say Creator but does not name Jesus, Allah or YHWH. Nor did "all men are created equal" apply to slaves, women or foreigners.

To support individual rights means supporting the right of others to have the same equal rights as you.
 
Jul 2014
16,479
10,868
massachusetts
I hate to say it, Kate, but now that you mention it.
Guys are good for one thing only. I've been accused of being a lesbian since I was nine or ten.
My answer: I wish.
How TF does it make sense that they are in charge?
Women do better in Parliamentary systems where a leader is chosen by their peers, like Angela Merkel, like Margaret Thatcher, like Nancy Pelosi.
When we have people choose, we get a Trump every now and then.
And when a women is on the ballot, most folks will say they would like a female president, just not this one, and then they vote for a disgusting misogynist, because the statute of limitations has expired, and those 27 women who accused him of doing what he brags about doing, are just lying to get money.
 
Nov 2013
1,550
440
El Paso, TX
No, Franklin. Libertarians focus on liberty. There are plenty of deeply religious Libertarians. The thing is they feel religion is a private and individual thing and that church and state should must be separate. No one has the right to impose or enforce their religion on anyone else. The declaration does say Creator but does not name Jesus, Allah or YHWH. Nor did "all men are created equal" apply to slaves, women or foreigners.

To support individual rights means supporting the right of others to have the same equal rights as you.
To support pizza without supporting tomatoes, cheese, and flour is pointless. You can protest for pizza all day long, but if you don't have the ingredients, you aren't going to get pizza. The ingredients for making liberty is religions. Without good religions, you cannot make liberty.

I said nothing about imposing religion. Religion should voluntary. And it doesn't matter which good religion one supports, any good religion is fine. This is why the Declaration says "Creator", to leave this open.

The Declaration of Independence was a political document applying to the English in America, so there was no reason why it should have applied to anyone else (slaves or foreigners). And women were not considered part of politics at that time, just as children aren't today.

I personally only care about the individual rights of the people in my society. Other societies aren't any of my business (except that I don't have the right to harm other good societies).
 
Mar 2020
1,429
371
Land of Freedom
Basically you are saying that you feel a theocracy is better than a democracy or republic, right? The Declaration of Independence was actually an anti-political document in my opinion. A document that declares the rejection of English monarchical politics and rule.

Tell me, what is your solution if you had the power to make things right?
 
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