The Thread for Non-Libertarians and Libertarians to Talk about Libertarianism

Mar 2020
1,429
371
Land of Freedom
You are a quick and astute learner. So which kind of rights do you prefer and what does your heart tell you about gender stuff? Keep it simple.

Loners hang out with other loners. Being a loner is part of being intelligent. They don't follow the herd.

So you prefer being bear or porcupine?
 
Jul 2014
16,479
10,868
massachusetts
Is that what you think I was saying? Goober, you do not know that since 1868 we have been under international maritime admiralty law none of us since then have been considered sovereigns?
May be hard to believe, but that hasn't really had an impact on my life.
Did your loss of sovereignty in 1868 impact your life?
 
Mar 2020
1,429
371
Land of Freedom
I very much believe you, goober. You can’t escape a prison if you don’t know you’re in one. But what if everything you have been told is all wrong? What if you begin to realize you’re living life locked away, confined to the system that your loved ones and authority figures have told you to lead? What if someone could show you a way to change all this?
 
Feb 2019
1,365
653
nunya
To a libertarian, these are the same. We believe the every person should have the right to keep the fruits of our labor (property).

When government takes our wealth (income taxes) by coercion, our right to Life, Liberty, and Property has been violated.

Simply put, it is WRONG for the government to take a person's wealth (or property) by coercion.

There are other ways of taxation that are ethical because no coercion is involved; e.g.; Tariffs, Sales tax, Excise Tax, etc.
Where do you think your roads come from? Bridges? Infrastructure? Who do you think pays for social programs? Who funds your public schools? The government. The government doesn't "coerce" people to do anything. You are living on American soil. Everything is owned by the government, the government simply leases it to you in return for yearly payment.

In the United States, Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution gives Congress the power to "lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States. This is also referred to as the "Taxing and Spending Clause."
 
Feb 2020
518
298
Kalifornia
Where do you think your roads come from? Bridges? Infrastructure? Who do you think pays for social programs? Who funds your public schools? The government. The government doesn't "coerce" people to do anything. You are living on American soil. Everything is owned by the government, the government simply leases it to you in return for yearly payment.

In the United States, Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution gives Congress the power to "lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States. This is also referred to as the "Taxing and Spending Clause."
47grapes - - nobody said that the government doesn't have the POWER to to take our wealth by coercion - - clearly they do, as Article 1 Section 8 states.

Libertarians are saying that the government SHOULDN'T have the power to to take our wealth by coercion!

Grover Cleveland expresses this idea much better than I:

"When more of the people's sustenance is exacted through the form of taxation than is necessary to meet the just obligations of government and expenses of its economical administration, such exaction becomes ruthless extortion and a violation of the fundamental principles of free government."
 
Mar 2020
302
226
Woodlands, Texas
@PrincessPoptart,

OK, as you can see, none of these welfare statists can answer your questions and you even had to go to the internet to learn on your own. It was especially silly of the kode guy to turn into the grammar nazi after you asked a question that he couldn't answer and had to consult his spirit guide.

Before I get to how the banking system works I will give you a short and simple one-sentence definition of Fiat Currency that those guys are having trouble with:

Fiat Currency is fake, worthless money that is back by nothing and is printed by the government and only has value because it is the only kind of currency that they will allow you to use in order to pay taxes to them.
OMG, that makes so much sense and no one has explained it that way before.
Well my uncle sort of did but he said it wasn't really "fiat" because they never outlawed barter and you can have a legal contract to barter with no money involved and its enforceable.
But he never mentioned about the government forcing you to pay taxes with their money.

Like if I owed the government one thousand dollars and I brought in two thousand in gold they would never accept it.
Not because they don't know what gold is but because the dollar loses credibility if they let you pay with something else.
People will always work for dollars because they will always owe dollars to government and are born owing government, is that what you're saying?
So Seymour is like let them do what they want it's their money but I HAVE TO participate in the system whether I want to use their money or not.

How Fractional Reserve Banking Works Basics:

Let say a person sets up a storehouse with armed guard and they tell you that you can store your gold there safely with them and they will give you a receipt for it so you can retrieve it anytime you want. So they tell all the people in town that they will protect their gold like this and sometimes they also promise you some interest (extra gold) if you keep it with them for a certain period.

This receipt they give you only has the amount of gold that you deposited with them has no name on it besides their and can be given to anyone - cash.

Now the storehouse realizes that at no given time will all the people come to collect their gold at one time so they got this great idea that they can just print out more receipts for gold than what they actually have in their storehouse. So they proceed to print out 10. 100 even thousands of times the amount of gold they actually have stored and start giving out these receipts to people as loans and when you pay back the loan, they even want some interest on it (real gold.) All this cost them absolutely nothing while you have to pay back in real gold. And if you don't then they legally come and take your house, your wife, your kids and anything of value you have up to the amount that they loaned you (that was in the old days.)

Today they are still doing the same thing but instead of taking your family members, they just make you and them work forever to pay off the fake debt. It doesn't matter if you die before paying it all off since it wasn't real for them in the first place.

You often see ads these days for "No Money down" or "0% Interest" or "1st Year Free" or We Pay The First 3 Months". These are all tricks to get the stupid to jump into the Fractional Reserve Banking System. Don't ever go for it and don't ever be in debt.

The Fraction Reserve Banking System has one big risk to itself though, it is when there is a crisis such as a drought, war or pandemic, etc. At that point, all people who have receipts will come and demand their gold which the storehouse (bank) doesn't have. So their answer to this is to get rid of the gold standard itself (another lesson). Before this, those storehouse people had to go bust and go to jail.

That is all for today, still have lots of stuff to do. The next lesson will be about how an FDR person would propose building houses, then smashing them with tanks to keep prices high and out of reach of common citizens. But that lesson will be given by @SeymourFlops2020

Extra: Idiots will tell you that gold is actually only valuable because of the value we put on it (no intrinsic value). That is ridiculous hippie talk. This is a material world and gold is the most valuable material that is relatively available. Gold has unique physical-chemical characteristics that made it very valuable. Gold is the most malleable and ductile of all the metals. Gold has the highest corrosion resistance of all the metals and it is corroded only by a mixture of nitric and hydrochloric acid. Gold is a noble metal because it does not oxidize (it won't rust not will it tarnish like silver.) There are other valuable metals such as platinum and palladium but these are too rare to be made into a common commodity or to be used as currency. Gold has value because it has many uses and purposes, from its beauty to its natural properties that make life better.

The next lesson is your flops, please.
Ok sure gold is always valuable and silver ever more so because now they use it in tech stuff I get that.
But the fractional reserve stuff I've heard of already but didn't private banks do that also and make a lot of money?
So it isn't just a government problem if we had "freedom" as you want it what would prevent private banks from doing the same?

But I'm stuck on the part about being born owing taxes because of all the money they are borrowing and even if I dug up a fucking silver mine in my back yard I still HAVE TO sell it for dollars to pay those taxes I owe even though I didn't signing a fucking thing.
Is that what you're telling me?
 
Mar 2020
1,429
371
Land of Freedom
Well yes, but it is not your fault since they first tricked your parents into signing a birth certificate for you, making you legally property or entity of the UNITED STATES inc. Then they tricked you into getting something called a Social Security #. This number represents you and your value as their stock. Like how you would brand a cow. Taxes are the dividends you pay to the government on yourself but are called taxes.

But Flops will take over the next lesson. I just totaled my car just because I was driving too fast for that little corner and am in an uber right now to go to the dealership to buy a new one. They have a kind of car here called Kei car and I love them! They have small engines but a lot of room. I wish they would sell them in American but they can't because the engine is too small.

Here is the one I just wrecked:



The reason why I am telling you this is because I will pay cash for the car. Remember the last lesson, NEVER HAVE DEBT! even at 0% interest.
 
Mar 2020
302
226
Woodlands, Texas
Yeah I wish you had told me that before I've got so much debt already it's like it's not even real.
Hey Seymour, Free has "told you twice" that you need to pick up the baton here how about it?
Is all you want to do is read about me and my pervy redneck cousins for your amusement or are you going to explain libertarianism to me?
 
Jul 2014
16,479
10,868
massachusetts
OMG, that makes so much sense and no one has explained it that way before.
Well my uncle sort of did but he said it wasn't really "fiat" because they never outlawed barter and you can have a legal contract to barter with no money involved and its enforceable.
But he never mentioned about the government forcing you to pay taxes with their money.

Like if I owed the government one thousand dollars and I brought in two thousand in gold they would never accept it.
Not because they don't know what gold is but because the dollar loses credibility if they let you pay with something else.
People will always work for dollars because they will always owe dollars to government and are born owing government, is that what you're saying?
So Seymour is like let them do what they want it's their money but I HAVE TO participate in the system whether I want to use their money or not.


Ok sure gold is always valuable and silver ever more so because now they use it in tech stuff I get that.
But the fractional reserve stuff I've heard of already but didn't private banks do that also and make a lot of money?
So it isn't just a government problem if we had "freedom" as you want it what would prevent private banks from doing the same?

But I'm stuck on the part about being born owing taxes because of all the money they are borrowing and even if I dug up a fucking silver mine in my back yard I still HAVE TO sell it for dollars to pay those taxes I owe even though I didn't signing a fucking thing.
Is that what you're telling me?
It's simple, the dollar is legal tender, for all debts public and private.
Barter is legal, but it's complicated.
So you have to pay your taxes in dollars.
If you run a business, it's a lot easier to get paid in dollars, than in cows or chickens or chick peas.
If you have a goldmine, you sell the ore, when you get paid, it's income, and you owe tax.
But lets say you go to the car dealer and you buy a car for 24 ounces (2 pounds) of gold.
You still owe taxes, because the car is income you realized, because you could have sold that gold for $40,000, and the dealer would normally get $40,000 for that car, you just made $40,000 in taxable income.