There is No Defending Late-term Abortion

Apr 2013
35,899
24,391
Left coast
#11
Leftists heads in the sand as if Gosnell’s house of horrors had never been exposed, as if no babies have ever survived abortions and been left to die cold and alone on a steel tray.
Gosnell was a criminal. That is another stupid thing the fundie menace does all the time.

Did you notice that the catholics don't have the monopoly on perversion, the Baptists are taking a run at their lead?

I guess all clergy are disgusting perverts.

See, I can do that too.
 
Nov 2012
16,776
5,588
Michigan
#12
One sexual devient clergy is one sexual deviant. One crying baby left to die on a cold metal tray is one murder.
 
Dec 2015
14,628
13,533
Arizona
#14
It is important to be clear about late term abortion, that many non-medical people may not understand clearly.
As a fetus develops, it adds, cell by cell, increased size and differentiation and during that process, all growth except for the single sperm cell, comes from the metabolic effort of the mother. The fetus is not a separate entity as it is inextricably part of maternal physiology. The male has no claim to the pregnancy, or at least has no actual contribution to the growth of the fetus.

Eventually the fetus reaches the point that if could survive outside the body (usually around 26-28 weeks) with intensive neonatal support.
Nonetheless, even later in the pregnancy, the life of the mother is the paramount concern as a fundamental issue of law and morality there is the no legal basis to protect the fetus over the life or life decisions of the mother until separation at birth.

The later stage fetus may have some legal rights (such as inheritance) but they are secondary to the mother's right to "body integrity" (a fundamental legal concept that a person has ownership of their body and decisions about it). That is why we cannot lock up drug users, smokers, or alcoholics for "fetus abuse". The mother has the right to make decisions about her body and the growing fetus until the time of delivery. Now in the later stages of pregnancy, if the fetus is viable, there is some legal validity to restrict some of the options available to the mother-- doctors are not allowed without valid medical reasons terminate a late stage pregnancy. As I know there is no sanctions against a women if she takes actions alone to terminate a pregnancy at any stage on her own; the prohibitions are against the physician.

What might be reasons to justify the termination of a pregnancy late? Since the life of the mother is the more fundamental consideration, if the pregnancy jeopardizes the mother as by causing heart or lung failure or multiple organ failure through such problems as Eisenmengers, cardiomyopahy of pregnancy, toxemia or HELLP syndromes, then termination of pregnancy is justified to preserve the life of the mother. She is not obligated to die to deliver a baby. Typically this would be by induction of labor or c-section or in rare instances dilation and extraction if she is unable to tolerate induced labor or surgery. In some juriscidtions, often this decision is made by a group of doctors to verify the medical necessity. This is not a trivial decision and no state, to my knowledge, allows only the wishes of the mother to be sufficient reason for a late term abortion.
Thank you, Biff. The BEST post of the decade! AND this is it in a nutshell:
The male has no claim to the pregnancy or at least has no actual contribution to the growth of the fetus.
Until men are physiologically able to 1)Conceive 2) Carry 3)Deliver a baby they need to shut their pie holes.
 
May 2013
5,267
4,432
arkansas
#15
Leftists heads in the sand as if Gosnell’s house of horrors had never been exposed, as if no babies have ever survived abortions and been left to die cold and alone on a steel tray.
Gosnell performed illegal abortions which frequently resulted in the birth of live, healthy infants who were then murdered.

What has he got to do with legal abortions?
 
Likes: Lyzza
Nov 2018
2,596
1,212
Montana
#16
Leftists heads in the sand as if Gosnell’s house of horrors had never been exposed, as if no babies have ever survived abortions and been left to die cold and alone on a steel tray.
Gosnell was a back alley abortionist and not residency trained Ob/gyn, did not have adequate state oversight, and violated the law. So what exactly is your point? Should women be required to maintain a pregnancy of a fetus that has died in the womb (with fatal risk from the decaying tissue), is non-viable outside the womb or if the fetus has no brain (anencephaly), as examples? Normal birth itself is a form of third trimester termination of pregnancy and the longer a pregnancy continues the greater the risk of bleeding or other complications. Earlier third terminations of pregnancy are typically accomplished by labor induction and delivery; sometimes by c-section. Opposition to legal and professionally supervised rare third term pregnancy termination means, ironically, that behaviors like Gosnell will become more likely. Perhaps that is the real objective of opposition to these procedures by abortion opponents who have no real concern for the mother or fetus, are ignorant of the medical issues and just want to promote illegal abortions.

Any viable fetus is given intensive care as available until that care is unsuccessful or deemed futile. That is the standard of care in every state to my knowledge. It is certainly the law in Virginia.
It’s Both Difficult and Incredibly Important to Make the Case for Third-Trimester Abortions

There's a term for abortion at nine months: Cesarean section | Commentary | Dallas News
 
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Likes: hoosier88
May 2013
5,267
4,432
arkansas
#17
Gosnell was a back alley abortionist and not a trained Ob/gyn, did not have adequate state oversight, and violated the law. So what exactly is your point?
Should women be required to maintain a pregnancy of a fetus that has died in the womb (with fatal risk from the decaying tissue), is non-viable outside the womb or if the fetus has no brain (anencephaly), as examples? Normal birth itself is a form of third trimester termination of pregnancy. Earlier third terminations of pregnancy are typically accomplished by labor induction and delivery; sometimes by c-section. Any viable fetus is given intensive care as available until that care is unsuccessful or deemed futile. That is the standard of care in every state, I suspect. It is certainly the law in Virginia.
It’s Both Difficult and Incredibly Important to Make the Case for Third-Trimester Abortions
The reality regarding Gosnell is something studiously ignored by the anti-choicers. THEY were to blame for him. THEY made abortion so difficult for poor women to obtain that it created a market for Gosnell and those like him.

Even after being shown the horrors that will arise when abortion is over restricted, they still cling to the asinine belief that outlawing abortion will stop abortion. It is this, most of all, that convinced me that for some, abortion is not about 'saving babies'. It is about a deep hatred for women.
 
Dec 2018
1,280
802
Wisconsin
#18
I'm not for late-term abortions. I think the majority of times the OP is correct that there are not good justifications.

But this is not the best way to approach the conversation. If the OP's position truly is "There is no defending XYZ" why bother create a thread? Why create a thread if you think no one can defend a position? You're entering a conversation with the premise that only one position is right.

But a lot of people reject that mentality. A lot of people are grounded in being an antagonist rather than a certain ideology. You tell me XYZ is popular, I might dislike XYZ simply because it's popular.

This thread seems like an attempt to start an argument, rather than start a conversation.
 
Likes: Clara007
Dec 2018
1,280
802
Wisconsin
#20
George Carlin had a bit about people telling you what you can and can't think and can and can't say. And there are some things you can talk about but you can't joke about. For example, you can talk about rape but you can't joke about rape. Carlin says "BULL SHIT I think rape is hilarious and I can prove it. Picture Porky Pig raping Elmer Fudd."

If you come out and say "You can't do XYZ" my natural inclination is to either ignore you tear down your position. Neither of which are productive.
 
Likes: Clara007

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