There is No Defending Late-term Abortion

May 2013
5,414
4,612
arkansas
#21
I'm not for late-term abortions. I think the majority of times the OP is correct that there are not good justifications.

But this is not the best way to approach the conversation. If the OP's position truly is "There is no defending XYZ" why bother create a thread? Why create a thread if you think no one can defend a position? You're entering a conversation with the premise that only one position is right.

But a lot of people reject that mentality. A lot of people are grounded in being an antagonist rather than a certain ideology. You tell me XYZ is popular, I might dislike XYZ simply because it's popular.

This thread seems like an attempt to start an argument, rather than start a conversation.
I know one woman who had a late term abortion. This was 20 years ago before genetic testing and ultrasounds were anywhere near the level they are today.

She was already six months along before the ultrasounds of the time were able to show that the fetus had no brain and that most of its internal organs had formed outside the body. One of the reasons it took so long to diagnose the problem is that the placenta had formed on the front wall of her uterus rather than the back. This made the fetus much more difficult to visualize.

It took another two months for her to jump through the legal hoops required by the hospital to terminate the pregnancy. It was a horrible experience for her. Two months of carrying a wanted child that had no chance of living. Two months of strangers congratulating her and asking 'what are you hoping for'. Well...less than two months actually. She got to the point that she stopped leaving the house except for doctors appointments. It was a heartbreaking time for her and her husband. Luckily, 'late term abortion' had not yet become the darling cause of the right wing so she didn't have to deal with protesters screaming at her and calling her a murderer outside of her doctors office.
 
May 2013
5,414
4,612
arkansas
#22
George Carlin had a bit about people telling you what you can and can't think and can and can't say. And there are some things you can talk about but you can't joke about. For example, you can talk about rape but you can't joke about rape. Carlin says "BULL SHIT I think rape is hilarious and I can prove it. Picture Porky Pig raping Elmer Fudd."

If you come out and say "You can't do XYZ" my natural inclination is to either ignore you tear down your position. Neither of which are productive.
When it comes to women and their rights, webguy rarely/never posts anything productive.
 
Jul 2014
14,119
8,573
massachusetts
#23
The fact is that most late term abortions involve women who want to have a baby, but the pregnancy threatens their life, or the fetus is horribly misformed and has no chance at life.

Turning this tragedy into a button pushing cause celebre is an especially cruel assault on people who have already been devastated by events beyond their control.
It speaks volumes about the inhumanity of those seeking political profit from human tragedy.
 
Dec 2018
1,671
1,042
Wisconsin
#26
I know one woman who had a late term abortion. This was 20 years ago before genetic testing and ultrasounds were anywhere near the level they are today.

She was already six months along before the ultrasounds of the time were able to show that the fetus had no brain and that most of its internal organs had formed outside the body. One of the reasons it took so long to diagnose the problem is that the placenta had formed on the front wall of her uterus rather than the back. This made the fetus much more difficult to visualize.

It took another two months for her to jump through the legal hoops required by the hospital to terminate the pregnancy. It was a horrible experience for her. Two months of carrying a wanted child that had no chance of living. Two months of strangers congratulating her and asking 'what are you hoping for'. Well...less than two months actually. She got to the point that she stopped leaving the house except for doctors appointments. It was a heartbreaking time for her and her husband. Luckily, 'late term abortion' had not yet become the darling cause of the right wing so she didn't have to deal with protesters screaming at her and calling her a murderer outside of her doctors office.
These are the kinds of productive conversations that need to be had on, admittedly, an uncomfortable topic.
 
Likes: catus felis
Dec 2015
15,481
14,376
Arizona
#27
The country would be a lot better off if these so-called pro-lifers would finally mind their own f*cking business.
Nailed it. We have been over this and over this. It's pointless. Some people will NOT mind their own business. I don't care what the subject there's an element in our society dedicated to the proposition that someone else's life/body IS THEIR business. What is UP WITH THAT?
I cannot believe the number of MEN who think they have something convincing to say about women's bodies. We aren't interested, guys.
AND....if you want to smoke, drink, take drugs, eat crap, sit in mommy's basement playing video games all day---then go ahead. If you want to tattoo stupid symbols and phrases from your forehead to your foreskin--then go ahead.
If you want to pierce your tongue, your nose, your ears, your eyebrows or anything else---then go ahead.
It's your body. It's your business.
Why is it so hard to wrap your pea-brains around women DOING WHAT THEY WANT with their bodies--their uterus???
My body, my choice. Your body, your choice. That's it. That's all.
 
Dec 2016
4,974
2,552
Canada
#29
It is important to be clear about late term abortion, that many non-medical people may not understand clearly.
As a fetus develops, it adds, cell by cell, increased size and differentiation and during that process, all growth except for the single sperm cell, comes from the metabolic effort of the mother. The fetus is not a separate entity as it is inextricably part of maternal physiology. The male has no claim to the pregnancy, or at least has no actual contribution to the growth of the fetus.

Eventually the fetus reaches the point that if could survive outside the body (usually around 26-28 weeks) with intensive neonatal support.
Nonetheless, even later in the pregnancy, the life of the mother is the paramount concern as a fundamental issue of law and morality there is the no legal basis to protect the fetus over the life or life decisions of the mother until separation at birth.

The later stage fetus may have some legal rights (such as inheritance) but they are secondary to the mother's right to "body integrity" (a fundamental legal concept that a person has ownership of their body and decisions about it). That is why we cannot lock up drug users, smokers, or alcoholics for "fetus abuse". The mother has the right to make decisions about her body and the growing fetus until the time of delivery. Now in the later stages of pregnancy, if the fetus is viable, there is some legal validity to restrict some of the options available to the mother-- doctors are not allowed without valid medical reasons terminate a late stage pregnancy. As I know there is no sanctions against a women if she takes actions alone to terminate a pregnancy at any stage on her own; the prohibitions are against the physician.

What might be reasons to justify the termination of a pregnancy late? Since the life of the mother is the more fundamental consideration, if the pregnancy jeopardizes the mother as by causing heart or lung failure or multiple organ failure through such problems as Eisenmengers, cardiomyopahy of pregnancy, toxemia or HELLP syndromes, then termination of pregnancy is justified to preserve the life of the mother. She is not obligated to die to deliver a baby. Typically this would be by induction of labor or c-section or in rare instances dilation and extraction if she is unable to tolerate induced labor or surgery. In some juriscidtions, often this decision is made by a group of doctors to verify the medical necessity. This is not a trivial decision and no state, to my knowledge, allows only the wishes of the mother to be sufficient reason for a late term abortion.
I've posted it too many times to mention already, so I'll just add that the best explanation to men and women who do not or cannot bear children, to understand what you're asking of pregnant women was the thought exercise written by Colorado University ethicist- Judith Jarvis Thompson, simply titled "The Violinist." It may have played a role in leading the Supreme Court justices to really think about what they were doing before they made the Roe vs. Wade decision many years ago. Doesn't mean Roe is right...but at least back then they were trying! Instead of just reactively checking the ideological boxes that their supporters and benefactors wanted to hear!
 

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