Trump Is A Symptom Of A Larger Problem

Dec 2016
5,441
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Canada
#21
I like your post but disagree with what you said about education. At the 1917 National Education Association Conference at least one teacher was proud of what education had to do with unionization. They were all preparing to defend democracy even more intensely in the classroom and this education also leads to anti monopoly laws, and strong families, meaning less dependence on government. I am out of time, but if you looked at some of the old books I have, you would see the importance of education for transmitting a culture that empowers the people. It is possible to use democratic values and education to empower the people. :kiss:
Likewise, I believe your theory fails to account for the economic system that only sees education as a source for profit opportunities, and will destroy the best education systems if they fail to allow privatization schemes and prevent big business from taking over education departments...like economics especially, over the past 30 years.

Capitalism is antithetical to democracy! Because democracy presumes that everyone is equal and should be treated as an equal. BUT that cannot happen...as we witness reading the news every single day, where the rich cannot be prosecuted for almost any crime..and certainly not to the full extent of the law(serial pedophiles being sentenced to weekends in jail and house arrest)/while the poor can be charged and convicted for just existing in places that those with money are trying to gentrify for their own uses.

And once you destroy democracy by allowing extreme inequalities to exist, education is similarly fragmented to the point where only the rich will get their children educated in the manner you describe, while the poor will be lucky to get any kind of education at all.
 
Feb 2014
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Oregon
#22
Well, I think you are the only one still reading what I say about education and that is very disheartening.

Maybe I should focus more on what men like Thomas Jefferson and Theodore Roosevelt said about education. There was a time when people in important places understood the necessity of protecting democracy in the classroom. It appears to be futile to keep saying this is about culture and social pressure is the best way to maintain civility and what that has to do with liberty. The way to avoid social problems is to have education for citizenship. All problems, legal, economic, political! etc.. We stopped educating for the democracy we had and educated for Hitler/Trump leadership and dependency.

The original “Man of the People,” Thomas Jefferson, was born on April 13 in 1743.

Jefferson is best known for drafting the Declaration of Independence, but he also wrote prolifically and prophetically on education. “If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be,” he wrote in a letter to a friend.

Jefferson understood that freedom depends on self-government: the cultivation of self-reliance, courage, responsibility, and moderation. Education contributes to both the knowledge and virtues that form a self-governing citizen. By proposing a bill in Virginia that would have established free schools every five to six square miles, Jefferson sought to teach “all children of the state reading, writing, and common arithmetic.” With these skills, a child would become a citizen able to “calculate for himself,” “express and preserve his ideas, his contracts and accounts,” and “improve, by reading, his morals and faculties.”
Thomas Jefferson, The First Advocate for Education Reform
 
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Dec 2016
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#23
Well, I think you are the only one still reading what I say about education and that is very disheartening.
Some time after I started here, this forum turned into something at least close to a complete waste of time!
As my thinking on politics and philosophy shifted, I wasn't expecting or certainly not looking for followers, but just wanted others to look for root causes of social ills, instead of just hashing over the same stupid topics that dominate social media. And like social media, it's about which side your on around here. So, if you agree with some socially liberal issues like feminism, abortion rights, ending mass incarceration etc., the liberals here are your friends. BUT, if you question their sacred cows...like Democrat icons or the whole Russiagate fiasco, you might get a thumbs up from the right, while the libs are off in their own corner and decide you're the enemy! Who needs this! Well, I'll see how things go a little while longer, but people get progressively dumber in election years, and it's become two years long now!

Maybe I should focus more on what men like Thomas Jefferson and Theodore Roosevelt said about education. There was a time when people in important places understood the necessity of protecting democracy in the classroom. It appears to be futile to keep saying this is about culture and social pressure is the best way to maintain civility and what that has to do with liberty. The way to avoid social problems is to have education for citizenship. All problems, legal, economic, political! etc.. We stopped educating for the democracy we had and educated for Hitler/Trump leadership and dependency.
I understand that Jefferson and Roosevelt could write very thoughtful and incisive letters and articles on education, democracy and social issues. But if I was interviewing Thomas Jefferson, I'd be asking how far democracy extends if it's limited to white, property-owning men, and the most valuable property those white men (including Jefferson himself) owned were African slaves! How can you have a real democracy or be able to promote democratic principles, if you are denying all of the fundamental human rights to people you are keeping as your property? Slave economies like Jefferson's Virginia were also extremely stratified by wealth because of slavery. This is most of why American patricians like Jefferson and Washington wanted to revolt against the British Empire. They had some vague belief that killing off natives to steal their lands would give landless European arrivals the opportunity to flourish in a similar manner, but at its best, the American dream would remain a dream for most going west to seek their fortune.

And Teddy Roosevelt set the course for what America has become today: a colonial empire seeking to control the poorer nations of the global south, and harvest their wealth. I don't believe you can have a real democracy at home, while suppressing democratic forces in the nations you are trying to extend and maintain economic control! I think we are seeing this in our time for sure, as America's democracy has turned into a choice between two parties completely corrupted by wealthy interests, and by the last primary results, the one that calls itself the Democratic Party declares it has the right to be undemocratic! I think that if you entire government departments are hard at work subverting and overthrowing democracy abroad, eventually they do it at home also!
 
Feb 2014
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Oregon
#24
You have made good points but those points are not about education and the importance of culture. Your argument derails my train of thought, while at the same time I totally agree with what you said. Let's see if I can shove things back on the track?

Education for a technological society with unknown values and leaving moral training to the church is what Germany had. A civilization can not exist without shared values and not everyone is getting their values from a church. Now you get an amoral society with no shared values and attempting to have law and order dependent on written laws and law enforcers will necessarily lead to a police state. That destroys liberty. Is that logic right or wrong?

Do you see the order of such a society is an authority over the people? That demands strong leaders and makes being wishy-washy like Obama intolerable! As in religion there must be a controlling God, the amoral society must have centralized and strong controlling power for many reasons. One of them is fear. In such a society, people no longer feel in control and this requires supermen who can take control and protect the masses. You can not trust your neighbor. You might not even know your neighbors. What you know is your desires and your fears. This leads to leaders like Hitler and Trump.
 
Dec 2018
3,204
953
New England
#25
Things were already horrible and most Americans were already treading water before Trump was elected. Trump is a Symptom of 40 years of NeoLiberalism and the Corporate Capture of the U.S. government. ..................................

Sounds like yet another ranting, coarse, political shock-jock making his money by telling those not inclined toward critical thinking that their problems are someone else's fault.
 
Sep 2015
6,889
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Stage Left
#26
To that I say "fuck the moderate left," and I bet so does Jimmy! Because I know far more about his show, his comedy as well as his political trajectory, which 8 to 10 years ago was standard Liberal Democrat.

What happened was that after Obama took a golden opportunity...coming in to the White House with a Congress completely under Democratic control, and a perfect chance to reshape Wall Street and banking regulatory framework to benefit millions of homeowners across America, Big Oh didn't do shit! Most Dems were willing to just take his excuses and dodges crafted by friendly media at face value, but Jimmy was part of that minority who didn't. Many disillusioned rank and file Democrat voters just dropped out of politics after the same shit in 2012 and didn't show up for Hill in 2016, inspite of ugly female war criminals like Madelain Albright declaring that "every woman of voting age across America OWED Hillary their vote!" For reasons unknown to the Democratic side of the Washington Swamp, they weren't turning out in numbers expected! It must have been the Russians who told them and black voters to stay home!

As for Jimmy, as a subscriber, I noticed that on some of the premium edition episodes a few years back taking questions of Youtube etc., he mentioned stuff about his personal life history that put his rather late in life radicalism in perspective. It seems that he has been afflicted by a rare, congenital form of arthritis since at least age 30, which was causing his body not to absorb calcium....leading to bone loss. I forget a lot of the intermediate details, but going through a long process to get the proper diagnosis, his medical treatments and a couple of operations later, and he ended up a former millionaire cleaned out of his investments and savings, just lucky that the late 90's thru early 2000's had been so financially rewarding to him. For so many other Americans, a similar diagnosis means bankruptcy, early death, and crowdfunding for operations and medical costs are the #1 causes for GoFundMe campaigns. If America had a decent national medical plan, GoFundMe would probably be out of business!

So, Jimmy was wrapping up all of his major medical issues shit right around the time that the 2016 was just getting started, and no surprise, he was early on the Bernie Sanders bandwagon when the constant droning drumbeat was that it was Hillary's, and less committed or adventurous reformers ...like Liz Warren were badgered into staying away from any primaries by the power brokers who threatened to take away her rewards. Jimmy Dore and some of his political allies in California from the realms of standup comedy waded in deep. A former co-host and still producer and writer - Mark van Landuit, successfully ran as a Bernie delegate to get to the Convention in Philly. The shows started taking on the serious tone of campaign rallies as they attended as many Bernie rallies as possible, and van Landuit was doing videos and going on skype to join the Show while at the Convention. He gave some of the seamy, underhanded tactics....I think they call it 'making the sauce' or something....most of Bernie's delegates were just average blue collar types....many of whom didn't have the money to cough up after discovering the day before the Convention began that they had to buy a 3 or 4 day weekend package at an exclusive hotel, OR not be allowed on the Convention floor regardless of their credentials. So, the better off Bernie supporters ( I think Bernie's campaign organizer - Norm Solomon had to scramble to take on this cause also) had to do their own crowdfunding campaign to make sure everyone got in. Then, there were the other horror stories of the Convention....turning down the lights on the Bernie side of the room and turning on sound cannons to drown out the boos when some fucking general was taking the stage as a keynote speaker. Many Sanders supporters were angered by a promise they had been given by Norm after Hillary's acclamation, that they would at least fight for a floor vote to nominate a candidate (expected to be Bernie Sanders of course). All for naught as we're all aware these dog and pony shows end.

But most of Jimmy's friends....like van Landuit and everyone at the Young Turks Youtube channel, Jimmy's sideline job), especially their their boss - Cenk Yugur, were rallying behind the Queen after Bernie got up and repeated the standard perfunctory closing Democrat mantra: it's over, now everyone needs to rally around X because the Republican choice is so horrible and we have to defeat him. Same shit every four years like clockwork. Awhile back, I posted a thread about an editorial by Black Agenda Report's Bruce Dixon, calling Bernie Sanders a "Sheepdog" candidate.....either willingly or unwittingly allowing himself to be used as the tool to keep any disgruntled radicals on the left from completely bolting the Democratic (in name only) Party, after Bernie did the usual shtick of getting on stage with victorious Hillary and declaring his unqualified support, as well as imploring his supporters and followers to do likewise. And let's just say that Jimmy Dore was among a minority who bolted the Party and for a little while there, raised Green Party support numbers to 6%.

I think this is when Jimmy's independent show really took off and started gathering listeners and viewers. Because the left in America has been so successfully divided and confused by all of the baffling bullshit that gets thrown at us on a daily basis. All many people know is: my life is SHIT....I'm working longer and longer hours for less money, while all of my expenses are rising....why is so much money going to military spending when it's almost impossible to drive down our streets and highways...and I'm getting afraid to cross our bridges, that are rusting out, I have to pay a penalty (thank you Obama for renaming Romneycare) because I can't afford to pay for the monthly premiums for bullshit healthcare plans with deductibles so high they're not worth bothering with!

So, I'll end here saying all of you old tea-sipping upper middle class liberals and conservatives are clueless because you live in protective bubbles built and maintained on a daily basis by corporate-owned media, but Jimmy Dore is one of the few uneducated/but quick thinking comics who's able to cut through the bullshit and clutter and get to the heart of many issues that give a lot of people who've never picked up books on poly-sci, sociology, or economics, who want to understand why everything is so fucked up, and why answers given seem so incomplete and vacuous!
the dumbass Dems really shit the bed when Obama came in and they couldnt get anything done with healthcare or anything really. it was a disaster. and i totally agree with that idiotic Albright BS a few years ago! i was pissed when i saw what she said. i am a woman, and i do not need some bitch to tell me who to vote for just because of my gender. didnt she say something like there was a special place in hell for women who didnt vote for Clinton? something like that. i wanted to scream and vomit all at the same time.
 
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Dec 2016
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#27
the dumbass Dems really shit the bed when Obama came in and they couldnt get anything done with healthcare or anything really. it was a disaster. and i totally agree with that idiotic Albright BS a few years ago! i was pissed when i saw what she said. i am a woman, and i do not need some bitch to tell me who to vote for just because of my gender. didnt she say something like there was a special place in hell for women who didnt vote for Clinton? something like that. i wanted to scream and vomit all at the same time.
Yes, and what's really telling now is how women who aren't part of their club, like the handful of progressives who've joined Congress, get no similar credit for being women in high places if they're challenging the system. They still have AOC targeted, and her district still targeted by the DCCC looking for a Joe Crowley-type candidate to take it bback for the Democrat establishment, even though she agreed to vote for Nancy Pelosi as House leader and has avoided contentious issues she talked about when first entering Congress...like abolishing ICE. She's following a Bernie Sanders path towards incremental change focusing a Green New Deal that for now, only has a special committee that does not have the means to bring legislation forward for a House vote. Her GND is already watered down from what the Green Party offered as a Green New Deal proposal in 2016.

The advantage of having a member of Congress talking about it is that she has the megaphone of mandatory media coverage that no one else has...environmental activists, scientists or members of 3rd parties in America. But, the way forward looks like a dead end, and according to the majority of environmental scientists who are studying the exponential rise in atmospheric CO2 levels, accelerating permafrost and sea ice melt in the Arctic, is that the long feared positive feedback effects expected from sudden release of sequestered carbon are already under way. Personally, I didn't even believe that Jill Stein's Green New Deal plan would be enough to slow down or stop the increase in atmospheric GHG levels, because the fundamental drivers are capitalist economics that demand constant economic growth for new money/debt obligations to be absorbed or the system crashes. And like 08, that is the only thing that oligarchs whose net worth is tied to the solvency of the present capitalist system have any fear of! It's certainly not environment and human extinction! But, at least a Green New Deal is better than doing nothing at all.

Minn. rep - Ilhan Omar was only celebrated as a "black immigrant Muslim woman" in Congress until she criticized the AIPAC lobby (which sure as hell is the source of more foreign interference in US politics than anything out of Russia) and tweeted the phrase "it's all about the benjamins" to a supportive follower on Twitter. And that was all that was needed for the Washington establishment to refit and reapply the Jeremy Corbin/Labour Party smear campaign looking for anything that can be interpreted as 'antisemetic.' This directed at a woman who spent her formative years as a refugee with a family that had to flee their home mostly because of The War On Terror! All of a sudden, being a woman, being black, being an immigrant, being a Muslim didn't offer any identity cover! But to her credit, that did not stop her from asking the only tough questions to pardoned war criminal - Elliot Abrams, who Trump brought into his cabinet to do for Venezuela what he already did for Nicaragua and El Salvador under the Reagan Administration. It was so telling and revealing how the supposed "opposition" sitting right there at his hearing did not say a word about Abrams dark and evil past. And that's why Abrams was so indignant and flustered by her questions. He did not expect to hear anything confrontational at his hearing, except maybe for some blathering about Trump or whether he had any Russian connections himself.

Similarly, Democrats were all abuzz when Tulsi Gabbard became the first Hindu woman to be elected to Congress in a previous session, but once she quit the DNC to work for the Sanders campaign in 2016, she was frozen out and targeted for removal by primary challenge (which failed), and she has become a much bigger lightning rod for the Washington establishment to focus on than Bernie Sanders this time around, because her first priority: cutting Pentagon waste, ending regime change ventures, ending the CIA's power to act as a clandestine and unregulated military force in the world...with it's own in house drone bombers at its disposal, and making drastic cuts to military spending that goes directly to Merchants of Death, are things that all seem sensible to most average people...who wonder why it's not talked about anymore on the news or political discussion shows like it was in the 70's and 80's. But Tulsi Gabbard is going straight at the heart of the biggest dragon of all, and they not only want her presidential campaign ended, they have a knack for making sure the "free" press doesn't mention her name or even include her name in discussions of candidates that include ones the establishment wants but were and are still undeclared. An empire under the control of a military-industrial complex which demands more and more reasons to justify their weapons and will sell almost all of its weapons to the worst buyers...like UAE and Saudi Arabia, does not take dissent lightly, and certainly does not offer any identity cred for gender, race, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation etc.. Those are things that are only celebrated when the right people who follow the program can be presented to the public as examples of diversity.
 
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Dec 2016
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#28
Sounds like yet another ranting, coarse, political shock-jock making his money by telling those not inclined toward critical thinking that their problems are someone else's fault.
Sounds like you also prefer the B option type of opposition most Democrats offer, which corporate donors go to when they are not happy and want to punish Republicans.
 
Dec 2016
5,441
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Canada
#29
You have made good points but those points are not about education and the importance of culture. Your argument derails my train of thought, while at the same time I totally agree with what you said. Let's see if I can shove things back on the track?
I'm not one of these 'thread-drift' nazis who get offended even 20 pages later, if there are posts that do not follow the OP. Nevertheless, I didn't start this thread about education, so if you want to put it "back on track" you need to show me how a quality liberal arts education can be re-established in a world where the right and liberal collaborators are privatizing public education, and have already been turning public education (even the state university systems) back to the regimented "3R's" classrooms and glorified trade schools that were offered to working and middle classes at the start of the industrial revolution in England during the 1800's. Unless there is a return towards class equality that existed for about 40 years until the 1980's, there is no framework to re-establish equal, quality public education.

Also, regardless of their high esteem and popularity, when I see names like Jefferson and T. Roosevelt held up as examples to follow, I'm reminded every time I think of what the historical accounts have to say about their actions as leaders, and how any flowing rhetoric out of their mouths or in their letters, did not match what they practiced in real life.

Education for a technological society with unknown values and leaving moral training to the church is what Germany had. A civilization can not exist without shared values and not everyone is getting their values from a church. Now you get an amoral society with no shared values and attempting to have law and order dependent on written laws and law enforcers will necessarily lead to a police state. That destroys liberty. Is that logic right or wrong?
I don't seem to have a choice other than be a broken record on the point that's made by every study of population demographics: the more unequal a society/the more dysfunctional it is by every measure, while equality of income and wealth promotes the sense of social cohesion and concerns for others and society at large. These are feelings and values you can't really teach at people! If they feel under threat and disconnected from the society they live in, no amount of education is going to change their outlook on life, and they are more likely to just try to take what they can for themselves!

Do you see the order of such a society is an authority over the people? That demands strong leaders and makes being wishy-washy like Obama intolerable! As in religion there must be a controlling God, the amoral society must have centralized and strong controlling power for many reasons. One of them is fear. In such a society, people no longer feel in control and this requires supermen who can take control and protect the masses. You can not trust your neighbor. You might not even know your neighbors. What you know is your desires and your fears. This leads to leaders like Hitler and Trump.
No, I think Obama was only 'wishy-washy' when it comes to his narcissistic concerns for acceptance and approval. Because what he did under the radar was even more vicious than Bush, though Trump has raised the bar on committing war crimes abroad and at the US Southern Border...especially because he is a fool who has to brag about everything he does! It was Obama who publicly championed whistleblower protection/while privately and deceitfully denying it through dusting off the Sedition Act of 1913, which had only been used once in all the years until Obama became president. He may have been reluctant to make journalism itself a crime for investigating and publishing government secrets...as Trump is doing now at full volume piling up charges on Julian Assange. But this is only because Obama has friends at the Times, WaPo and CNN/while Trump does not! Now, the legacy media is panicked because the same crap thrown at Assange can be used on them for publishing Wikileaks documents. Obama was trying to carry out war crimes in secret, and for that reason had secret indictments processed and kept ready if Julian Assange left the Ecuadoran Embassy in London. Trump came in offered Ecuador 4 billion through IMF-sponsored loans (bribes) to get the new government (which already was facing a scandal because of Wikileaks revelations on them) to hand over Assange so the Brit lackeys could throw him in the British version of Guantanamo Prison (Belmarsh)....whether it violated international law or not!

So, what Trump represents is mostly a slight raising of the bar...but doing it out in the open from what Obama was doing clandestinely while his MSM friends kept maintaining his nice public image. But opposition to Obama that doomed the less saleable Hillary Clinton, was that so many voters were sick and tired of broken and unfulfilled promises while they watched the Wall Street class get richer over the past 10 years. On that front, his malleable wish washy public image certainly didn't help his image or allies in the Democratic Party....since it was noticed at the end of 2016 that Obama oversaw the loss of more than 1000 Democrats at all levels of government across America during his two terms.
 

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