When we had a real President

imaginethat

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Oct 2010
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Obviously if in Canada the average family pays 41.8% in total taxes from income because single payer healthcare drives it that high that in the USA it would be at an even higher RATE than in Canada.
Neither of those are "obviously".
True. You've tenaciously debated JOM, with no effect whatsoever. So let's roll out the facts which are the crucifixes and garlic in the post-truth, lawless Trump Era. The US pays more for healthcare than any other first-world country, A LOT MORE.



And we get less for the buck spent. Let's go to "the source," FOX, for the cost of providing healthcare for illegal aliens.

On Thursday, the Center for Immigration Studies (CIS), a policy group that advocates for lower levels of immigration overall, published a study finding that the cost could be up to $23 billion a year....​
The study estimates that if all income-eligible, uninsured illegal immigrants received subsidies under the ACA, then the cost to insure would be $22.6 billion, but with “likely enrollment” of 46 percent, the total cost would be perhaps $10.4 billion a year. It predicts that the average cost of a subsidized premium would be $4,637.​
If a mixed approach of ACA subsidies and Medicaid enrollment were used, the cost would dip to $19.6 billion with 100 percent enrollment, and $10.7 billion assuming “likely enrollment.”....​


OK, according to FOX, including illegal immigrants in the US healthcare system would cost $23 billion. The total cost of US healthcare: ~$3.5 trillion, 18 percent of the US GDP. Total cost to taxpayers:

The federal government spent nearly $1.1 trillion on health care in fiscal year 2018 (table 1). Of that, Medicare claimed roughly $583 billion, Medicaid and the Children’s Health Insurance Program (CHIP) about $399 billion, and veterans’ medical care about $70 billion. In addition to these direct outlays, various tax provisions for health care reduced income tax revenue by about $225 billion. Over $146 billion of that figure comes from the exclusion from taxable income of employers’ contributions for medical insurance premiums and medical care.​


$1.1 trillion + $225 billion = $1.325 trillion. Of that figure, $23 billion is 3.1 percent, the cost to taxpayers of enrolling illegal immigrants int the US healthcare system.

Where do we need to go from here JOM?
 
Last edited:
Dec 2015
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True. You've tenaciously debated JOM, with no effect whatsoever. So let's roll out the facts which are the crucifixes and garlic in the post-truth, lawless Trump Era. The US pays more for healthcare than any other first-world country, A LOT MORE.



And we get less for the buck spent. Let's go to "the source," FOX, for the cost of providing healthcare for illegal aliens.

On Thursday, the Center for Immigration Studies (CIS), a policy group that advocates for lower levels of immigration overall, published a study finding that the cost could be up to $23 billion a year....​
The study estimates that if all income-eligible, uninsured illegal immigrants received subsidies under the ACA, then the cost to insure would be $22.6 billion, but with “likely enrollment” of 46 percent, the total cost would be perhaps $10.4 billion a year. It predicts that the average cost of a subsidized premium would be $4,637.​
If a mixed approach of ACA subsidies and Medicaid enrollment were used, the cost would dip to $19.6 billion with 100 percent enrollment, and $10.7 billion assuming “likely enrollment.”....​


OK, accordihttps://www.foxnews.com/politics/providing-health-insurance-to-illegal-immigrantsg to FOX, including illegal immigrants in the US healthcare system would cost $23 billion. The total cost of US healthcare: ~$3.5 trillion, 18 percent of the US GDP. Total cost to taxpayers:

The federal government spent nearly $1.1 trillion on health care in fiscal year 2018 (table 1). Of that, Medicare claimed roughly $583 billion, Medicaid and the Children’s Health Insurance Program (CHIP) about $399 billion, and veterans’ medical care about $70 billion. In addition to these direct outlays, various tax provisions for health care reduced income tax revenue by about $225 billion. Over $146 billion of that figure comes from the exclusion from taxable income of employers’ contributions for medical insurance premiums and medical care.​


$1.1 trillion + $225 billion = $1.325 trillion. Of that figure, $23 billion is 3.1 percent, the cost to taxpayers of enrolling illegal immigrants int the US healthcare system.

Where do we need to go from here JOM?
This is what the Party of NO can't grasp---these few little words:
The US pays more for healthcare than any other first-world country, A LOT MORE.
AND it's rising! It's out of control. We have any number of successful healthcare models around the globe---all of which are working beautifully. We've seen the success of Medicare RIGHT here at home, but for some reason,
the Cult can't see it.
America's statistics are horrendous. As you pointed out, our life-expectancy places us at 27th in the world. In 2017 American's spent $3.4 trillion dollars on healthcare.
The United States also consistently ranks as having the highest average annual medical drug cost per person. Our healthcare performance ranks 11th in the world.

America's infant mortality rate is HIGHER than 47 other countries. U.S. citizens pay 10 times the amount for life-saving cancer drugs than anywhere in the world. Other drug prices have sky-rocketed. Hospital costs have done the same.
Americans pay more for medical costs than other nations despite their medical care ranking last against the world’s leading developed countries.
So, this debate should NOT be about whether healthcare is going to cost us, whether we have private insurance or Medicare for All. WE already know what it's going to cost and that we ARE going to pay it one way or another. Americans want healthcare. Period.
Healthcare IS ON THE BALLOT whether the GOP likes it or not.
 
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Although it is a bit dated, I believe the following article is an important read for every American regarding health care in the US, of which is titled, "Bitter Pill: Why Medical Bills Are Killing Us.":

http://www.uta.edu/faculty/story/2311/Misc/2013,2,26,MedicalCostsDemandAndGreed.pdf

In it, the author, Steven Brill, concludes...

...

Put simply, with Obamacare we’ve changed the rules related to who pays for what, but we haven’t done much to change the prices we pay.

When you follow the money, you see the choices we’ve made, knowingly or unknowingly.

Over the past few decades, we’ve enriched the labs, drug companies, medical device makers, hospital administrators and purveyors of CT scans, MRIs, canes and wheelchairs. Meanwhile, we’ve squeezed the doctors who don’t own their own clinics, don’t work as drug or device consultants or don’t otherwise game a system that is so gameable. And of course, we’ve squeezed everyone outside the system who gets stuck with the bills.

We’ve created a secure, prosperous island in an economy that is suffering under the weight of the riches those on the island extract.

And we’ve allowed those on the island and their lobbyists and allies to control the debate, diverting us from what Gerard Anderson, a health care economist at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, says is the obvious and only issue: “All the prices are too damn high.”
 

imaginethat

Forum Staff
Oct 2010
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Colorado
This is what the Party of NO can't grasp---these few little words:
The US pays more for healthcare than any other first-world country, A LOT MORE.
AND it's rising! It's out of control. We have any number of successful healthcare models around the globe---all of which are working beautifully. We've seen the success of Medicare RIGHT here at home, but for some reason,
the Cult can't see it.
America's statistics are horrendous. As you pointed out, our life-expectancy places us at 27th in the world. In 2017 American's spent $3.4 trillion dollars on healthcare.
The United States also consistently ranks as having the highest average annual medical drug cost per person. Our healthcare performance ranks 11th in the world.

America's infant mortality rate is HIGHER than 47 other countries. U.S. citizens pay 10 times the amount for life-saving cancer drugs than anywhere in the world. Other drug prices have sky-rocketed. Hospital costs have done the same.
Americans pay more for medical costs than other nations despite their medical care ranking last against the world’s leading developed countries.
So, this debate should NOT be about whether healthcare is going to cost us, whether we have private insurance or Medicare for All. WE already know what it's going to cost and that we ARE going to pay it one way or another. Americans want healthcare. Period.
Healthcare IS ON THE BALLOT whether the GOP likes it or not.
The post-truth, lawless Trump Era marks a triumph, temporary we'll hope, of materialism. This view of the meaning, or lack thereof, of life is as old as human civilization itself. Today, from Pope Donald John Trump the First to the individual Priests and Priestesses who worship in the MAGA Church of the Almighty Buck, one of their most firm tenets is: If you can't afford the high-priced medical insurance I can afford, if you haven't access to our expensive and poor-performing healthcare delivery system like I do, then you deserve to die on the streets, losers.

That's what it boils down to. While they wail incessantly about how much providing healthcare for all will cost them personally, they ignore the facts that prove their fears to be phony. It's the principle of the thing: What's mine is mine, and what's yours is mine, except for what crumbs fall off of my high-priced plate.

Denying these high priests and princesses the use of their taxes to pay for healthcare when they could be using the cash to put in a pool, is just wrong in their opinions. And that is what it all boils down to: raw greed and selfishness. They are blinded by the searing light of the sun of MAGA to the essential fact that providing accessible healthcare for citizens exactly compares to defending citizens from hostile nations. Both are essential.

But the Priests and Priestesses of the MAGA Church of the Almighty Buck argue tirelessly, and vociferously against compassionate governance that provides a basic, won't go away, human need, a need that requires, like the military, sufficient funds to deliver. They do argue for putting in a pool when the roof is leaking badly.
 
Dec 2018
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New England
True. You've tenaciously debated JOM, with no effect whatsoever. So let's roll out the facts which are the crucifixes and garlic in the post-truth, lawless Trump Era. The US pays more for healthcare than any other first-world country, A LOT MORE.



And we get less for the buck spent. Let's go to "the source," FOX, for the cost of providing healthcare for illegal aliens.

On Thursday, the Center for Immigration Studies (CIS), a policy group that advocates for lower levels of immigration overall, published a study finding that the cost could be up to $23 billion a year....​
The study estimates that if all income-eligible, uninsured illegal immigrants received subsidies under the ACA, then the cost to insure would be $22.6 billion, but with “likely enrollment” of 46 percent, the total cost would be perhaps $10.4 billion a year. It predicts that the average cost of a subsidized premium would be $4,637.​
If a mixed approach of ACA subsidies and Medicaid enrollment were used, the cost would dip to $19.6 billion with 100 percent enrollment, and $10.7 billion assuming “likely enrollment.”....​


OK, according to FOX, including illegal immigrants in the US healthcare system would cost $23 billion. The total cost of US healthcare: ~$3.5 trillion, 18 percent of the US GDP. Total cost to taxpayers:

The federal government spent nearly $1.1 trillion on health care in fiscal year 2018 (table 1). Of that, Medicare claimed roughly $583 billion, Medicaid and the Children’s Health Insurance Program (CHIP) about $399 billion, and veterans’ medical care about $70 billion. In addition to these direct outlays, various tax provisions for health care reduced income tax revenue by about $225 billion. Over $146 billion of that figure comes from the exclusion from taxable income of employers’ contributions for medical insurance premiums and medical care.​


$1.1 trillion + $225 billion = $1.325 trillion. Of that figure, $23 billion is 3.1 percent, the cost to taxpayers of enrolling illegal immigrants int the US healthcare system.

Where do we need to go from here JOM?
Do those life expectancy rates include deaths by homicide?
 
Dec 2015
20,132
20,506
Arizona
The post-truth, lawless Trump Era marks a triumph, temporary we'll hope, of materialism. This view of the meaning, or lack thereof, of life is as old as human civilization itself. Today, from Pope Donald John Trump the First to the individual Priests and Priestesses who worship in the MAGA Church of the Almighty Buck, one of their most firm tenets is: If you can't afford the high-priced medical insurance I can afford, if you haven't access to our expensive and poor-performing healthcare delivery system like I do, then you deserve to die on the streets, losers.

That's what it boils down to. While they wail incessantly about how much providing healthcare for all will cost them personally, they ignore the facts that prove their fears to be phony. It's the principle of the thing: What's mine is mine, and what's yours is mine, except for what crumbs fall off of my high-priced plate.

Denying these high priests and princesses the use of their taxes to pay for healthcare when they could be using the cash to put in a pool, is just wrong in their opinions. And that is what it all boils down to: raw greed and selfishness. They are blinded by the searing light of the sun of MAGA to the essential fact that providing accessible healthcare for citizens exactly compares to defending citizens from hostile nations. Both are essential.

But the Priests and Priestesses of the MAGA Church of the Almighty Buck argue tirelessly, and vociferously against compassionate governance that provides a basic, won't go away, human need, a need that requires, like the military, sufficient funds to deliver. They do argue for putting in a pool when the roof is leaking badly.
Agree--totally, but there's another point that needs to be made--in fact more than ONE.
Americans already pay a massive “tax” to fund health care. It just happens to go to private insurance companies, rather than the federal government. Whether insurance premiums are paid to a public monopoly (the government) or to a private monopoly (the notoriously uncompetitive US private health insurance system) makes little difference. Both payments reduce the take-home pay of workers; and although it’s always possible to evade taxes or to refuse to pay one thin dime to insurance companies, in practice almost everyone abides.
We've always paid for others' healthcare, in one way or another. Period. In one way or another, TAXPAYERS pick up the unpaid bills.
 
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imaginethat

Forum Staff
Oct 2010
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Colorado
Do those life expectancy rates include deaths by homicide?
Interesting question. An uneven distribution of homicides does exist in the US.

Screen Shot 2020-02-13 at 8.08.09 AM.jpg

The overall or crude US death rate.

Screen Shot 2020-02-13 at 8.12.27 AM.jpg

The crude death rate from homicides.

Screen Shot 2020-02-13 at 8.16.08 AM.jpg


Accidental, preventable, suicide, and homicide deaths are included in life expectancy estimates for all nations. Details for the US:

Why US life expectancy is falling, in three charts

Screen Shot 2020-02-13 at 8.26.51 AM.jpg

Screen Shot 2020-02-13 at 8.38.42 AM.jpg

Screen Shot 2020-02-13 at 8.38.54 AM.jpg

AAnd the role of homicidess

Screen Shot 2020-02-13 at 8.40.29 AM.jpg
 

imaginethat

Forum Staff
Oct 2010
70,577
31,021
Colorado
Agree--totally, but there's another point that needs to be made--in fact more than ONE.
Americans already pay a massive “tax” to fund health care. It just happens to go to private insurance companies, rather than the federal government. Whether insurance premiums are paid to a public monopoly (the government) or to a private monopoly (the notoriously uncompetitive US private health insurance system) makes little difference. Both payments reduce the take-home pay of workers; and although it’s always possible to evade taxes or to refuse to pay one thin dime to insurance companies, in practice almost everyone abides.
We've always paid for others' healthcare, in one way or another. Period. In one way or another, TAXPAYERS pick up the unpaid bills.


Pretty hefty tax. A breakdown for 2018.

Screen Shot 2020-02-13 at 9.01.22 AM.jpg
Screen Shot 2020-02-13 at 9.01.41 AM.jpg
Screen Shot 2020-02-13 at 9.01.59 AM.jpg


When we last had a real president he tried to improve the American healthcare system instead of trying to reduce the prison sentences of felonious friends. Improving healthcare, that's what the last real president was trying to do, unlike the bastard in chief we now have who, unlike all the losers who can die on the streets, has all the MAGA healthcare he'll ever need.
 
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If McCain hadn't voted against the repeal of Obamacare, you'd have less Repubs in Congress than you do now.

They had no plan (much like current trump), and wanted to get rid of pre-existing conditions which was one of the biggest upsides of ACA.

Americans as a whole, vote with their wallet. I have pre-existing conditions, and when I went from working for the State to a private company, my insurance was well over $600 a month, for just me, and that was with COBRA.
You're insurance was $600 a month between jobs, because you chose to keep Cobra and didn't save to pay for your own prescriptions. If there was a gap between one job to the next, you could've gotten on the ACA until you're new jobs insurance kicked in.

Either way, it was your decision. A very unthoughtout decision, I might add.
 
Jul 2019
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You're insurance was $600 a month between jobs, because you chose to keep Cobra and didn't save to pay for your own prescriptions. If there was a gap between one job to the next, you could've gotten on the ACA until you're new jobs insurance kicked in.

Either way, it was your decision. A very unthoughtout decision, I might add.
um, no that's not how it worked, but thanks for your concern, lol