Will Islam Mature

RNG

Forum Staff
Apr 2013
40,113
27,936
La La Land North
This line in a thread started by Lyzza:

Columbus later wrote, "Let us in the name of the Holy Trinity go on sending all the slaves that can be sold."
Time to Abolish Columbus Day | Common Dreams | Breaking News & Views for the Progressive Community
http://defendingthetruth.com/civil-rights/50919-time-abolish-columbus-day.html

tempted me to post it as a response with the following, but in fact that would have derailed the thread from the direction I assume she was headed so I thought it better to start its own thread.

So Columbus thought that the Holy Trinity was all in favor of him and everyone else capturing these slaves. And there are lots of passages in the bible that justify this view. And it is so often brought up that the FFs had slaves. And all the good RWs keep insisting on how Christian they were.

But this isn’t my point. I’m not claiming any modern Christian is in favor of slavery. Nor do I think the FFs would have been slavers had they been alive today. And I don’t want to rehash the “if the bible is wrong here why is it right there” debate or the “man’s laws, god’s law and unattributed law” stuff.

My point is that 1400 years from its invention, discovery, creation, whatever word you wish, of Christianity, people still widely accepted and were comfortable with slavery, and in fact thought god and his two buddy gods approved.

So the Koran was finished in 633 CE. So Islam is 1300 years from its invention, discovery, creation, whatever word you wish.

Is it just that they haven’t had the time to mature, like Christianity had to?
 
Mar 2008
9,638
4,893
australia
the doctrine is structured differently.

the bible is a collection of stories, parables, some are the words of jesus, some are the words of his followers, some are stories that predate jesus. only a minority of it is didactic instructions, most of it is just stories, it tells us what other people did and what they thought, but it isnt a book of instructions that overtly says "you have to do this". christianity is vague, it is contradictory and it leaves it to the reader to resolve the contradictions. it can easily be interpreted a thousand ways, and throughout history it has been.

islamic doctrine, quran and hadith, is the opposite. some of it is stories and parables, particularly the hadith, it is a collection of quotes of muhammad and descriptions of what he did. but the reason these quotes and descriptions were collected is because of the unambiguous instruction that muhammads words and deeds were to be followed, the messenger is the template for "lawful" and therefore moral behaviour. its called sharia. islamic doctrine is specific, it is unambiguous, and probably uniquely in religious doctrine, it includes a passage about how to reconcile any contradictions in the text. and it clearly says it cannot be changed.

i disagree that christianity grew up because it finally got old enough, i think it grew up by force because the rest of society (ie europe) went through a renaissance and developed a whole lot of new ideas, and christianity was given a choice - either be left behind as a historical footnote, or adapt to a new world, which is what happened. over the last 50 years the world has become more connected, people are more mobile, islam has also been exposed to the same ideas, and it has been given a choice - grow up and adapt to the modern world or be left behind as a footnote in history. but it has refused either of those choices and made up its own mind - stay in the middle ages. it has to, thats what islamic doctrine says to do. if they were to have gender equity, have freedom of choice and freedom of speech, it would no longer be islam.

over the last 50 years, a lot of islamic countries have become more and more oppressive. in many islamic countries in 1950, illiteracy was rampant, poverty was crushing, people were not so obsessed with religion because life was about survival. as they have developed, they have started to be more confident in asserting islam, and as they have become more and more islamic, they have become more and more backward.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 people

imaginethat

Forum Staff
Oct 2010
69,496
29,397
Colorado
the doctrine is structured differently.

the bible is a collection of stories, parables, some are the words of jesus, some are the words of his followers, some are stories that predate jesus. only a minority of it is didactic instructions, most of it is just stories, it tells us what other people did and what they thought, but it isnt a book of instructions that overtly says "you have to do this". christianity is vague, it is contradictory and it leaves it to the reader to resolve the contradictions. it can easily be interpreted a thousand ways, and throughout history it has been.

islamic doctrine, quran and hadith, is the opposite. some of it is stories and parables, particularly the hadith, it is a collection of quotes of muhammad and descriptions of what he did. but the reason these quotes and descriptions were collected is because of the unambiguous instruction that muhammads words and deeds were to be followed, the messenger is the template for "lawful" and therefore moral behaviour. its called sharia. islamic doctrine is specific, it is unambiguous, and probably uniquely in religious doctrine, it includes a passage about how to reconcile any contradictions in the text. and it clearly says it cannot be changed.

i disagree that christianity grew up because it finally got old enough, i think it grew up by force because the rest of society (ie europe) went through a renaissance and developed a whole lot of new ideas, and christianity was given a choice - either be left behind as a historical footnote, or adapt to a new world, which is what happened. over the last 50 years the world has become more connected, people are more mobile, islam has also been exposed to the same ideas, and it has been given a choice - grow up and adapt to the modern world or be left behind as a footnote in history. but it has refused either of those choices and made up its own mind - stay in the middle ages. it has to, thats what islamic doctrine says to do. if they were to have gender equity, have freedom of choice and freedom of speech, it would no longer be islam.

over the last 50 years, a lot of islamic countries have become more and more oppressive. in many islamic countries in 1950, illiteracy was rampant, poverty was crushing, people were not so obsessed with religion because life was about survival. as they have developed, they have started to be more confident in asserting islam, and as they have become more and more islamic, they have become more and more backward.
That's well put, and you've spoken some truths many liberals would rather deny than accept. It means the problems posed by Islam unfortunately have no solution within Islam.

Islam is backwards looking as you noted and is a genuine and serious problem for the rest of the world.
 

RNG

Forum Staff
Apr 2013
40,113
27,936
La La Land North
The Christian reformation occurred ~1400 years after the texts the bible comes from were written (most scholars say). So is Islam due for its equivalent of Luther in about 100 years?
 
Mar 2008
9,638
4,893
australia
The Christian reformation occurred ~1400 years after the texts the bible comes from were written (most scholars say). So is Islam due for its equivalent of Luther in about 100 years?
did you read what i posted?

christianity was reformable because its vague and contradictory and metaphorical. its easy to interpret it in countless different ways. when the reformation hit europe christianity simply started reinterpreting the metaphors.

islam is different. islam is a clear, unambiguous, internally consistent, direct list of instructions. it quite clearly says it is the perfect word of god and must be obeyed without question. to reform islam you would need to get rid of the quran, get rid of the hadith and get rid of muhammad.
 

RNG

Forum Staff
Apr 2013
40,113
27,936
La La Land North
did you read what i posted?

christianity was reformable because its vague and contradictory and metaphorical. its easy to interpret it in countless different ways. when the reformation hit europe christianity simply started reinterpreting the metaphors.

islam is different. islam is a clear, unambiguous, internally consistent, direct list of instructions. it quite clearly says it is the perfect word of god and must be obeyed without question. to reform islam you would need to get rid of the quran, get rid of the hadith and get rid of muhammad.
Given the various sects, and the fact that it seems the followers of each Mosque seem to vary their position, I would suggest that like the blogger I referenced previously, there is still lots of room for interpretation. I still question your adherence to certain translations as being the end all and be all.
 

imaginethat

Forum Staff
Oct 2010
69,496
29,397
Colorado
Given the various sects, and the fact that it seems the followers of each Mosque seem to vary their position, I would suggest that like the blogger I referenced previously, there is still lots of room for interpretation. I still question your adherence to certain translations as being the end all and be all.
I've met a few Sufis, and dated a Sufi lady. They seem pretty cool.
 
Mar 2008
9,638
4,893
australia
Given the various sects, and the fact that it seems the followers of each Mosque seem to vary their position, I would suggest that like the blogger I referenced previously, there is still lots of room for interpretation. I still question your adherence to certain translations as being the end all and be all.
the differences between sects is pretty small, they disagree on things that are outside doctrine, or on trivialities, or on doctrine that they all agree is weak and unreliable anyway. on most issues they agree.

my experience has been when i see differences of opinion between muslims its often due to ignorance of actual islamic doctrine. if its not due to ignorance its often because the claim is an outright lie.

there is another reason, and thats a difference in use of words. as an example, i have heard saudi arabia described by islamists as a free country, ensuring freedom of speech and freedom of expression. from a strict islamic interpretation that is true, because the term freedom is not used the way it is in the west. what it means to the muslim who made that claim is that in saudi arabia a muslim is free of any influence other than islam. each individual is free to be muslim without any possible prejudice. likewise, they genuinely refer to western countries with freedom of speech as oppressive and they really mean it. freedom of speech is oppressive, because freedom of speech means the freedom to criticise islam.

the meaning of words under islam is often backwards. freedom means oppression, "the truth" means "a claim", tolerance means oppression, war means peace. thats how islamists can rampage across iraq and syria slicing off heads, capturing and raping slaves, exiling or murdering yazidis and christians, and happily post it all on youtube saying islam is a beautiful religion of peace under a loving and just god. to an islamic mind, this makes sense.
 
Mar 2008
9,638
4,893
australia
I've met a few Sufis, and dated a Sufi lady. They seem pretty cool.
hey i have met many muslims, in med school they were about a quarter of the year, and they seem pretty cool. never debated religion with them though, and i bet i know more about islamic doctrine than any of them do. i always try to use the term islam and islamist, rather than muslim. most muslims dont follow islam very closely at all.